[Ads-l] Odd Sequence of Tenses

Laurence Horn laurence.horn at YALE.EDU
Wed Oct 13 16:42:17 UTC 2021 

> On Oct 13, 2021, at 12:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM> wrote:
> 
> Let's bear in mind that David Axelrod, whose usage started the thread, is a
> former presidential adviser.
> 
> JL

And if Axelrod’s counterfactual ("If there had not been a coronavirus in 2020, Trump probably wins that election”), with pluperfect rather than present tense in the antecedent, like the FDR-inspired one Betty cites below but unlike the sportsworld cites from Ben Yagoda, David Carkeet, or me, it just goes to support the observation that “Politics ain’t beanbag”—or baseball, or football, or basketball, or…

LH

> 
> On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 12:23 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Cool!
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 11:21 AM Betty Birner <bbirner at niu.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> And just to add a non-sports example, there's this, from the 1995 movie
>>> "The American President":
>>> 
>>> "You've said it yourself a million times. If there had been a TV in every
>>> living room sixty years ago, this country does not elect a man in a
>>> wheelchair."
>>> 
>>> Betty Birner
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> On Behalf Of
>>> Laurence Horn
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 10:01 AM
>>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
>>> Subject: Re: Odd Sequence of Tenses
>>> 
>>> Huzzah! No modesty needed, Ben. 12 years before David Carkeet’s “On
>>> Language” column in the NYT Mag,
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/23/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-72300-on-language-batting-the-breeze.html,
>>> that doesn’t cite your earlier finding and dubbing.  If Carkeet cites you
>>> in his 2000 “On Language” piece, the world is a fairer place (and maybe I
>>> begin a data-exchanging correspondence with you 33 years ago instead of
>>> with him 21 years ago).  On the other hand, Carkeet has published a couple
>>> of novels with linguists as (anti-)heroes, so I don’t want to be too tough
>>> on him.
>>> 
>>> LH
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 13, 2021, at 2:48 AM, Ben Yagoda <byagoda at UDEL.EDU> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I will immodestly note that I named and identified the “sports present”
>>> back in 1988:
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/14/magazine/on-language-tense-talk.html <
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/14/magazine/on-language-tense-talk.html>
>>>> 
>>>> Ben
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> 
>>>>> Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:04:35 -0400
>>>>> From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU <mailto:
>>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>>
>>>>> Subject: Re: odd sequence of tenses
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Oct 12, 2021, at 9:07 AM, dave at wilton.net <mailto:dave at wilton.net>
>>> <dave at WILTON.NET <mailto:dave at WILTON.NET>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I don't see anything odd at all, it's just the natural sequence of
>>> tenses. The superordinate verb is in the historical present, so the time
>>> frame of the entire sentence is the present. The lack of a pandemic in the
>>> subordinate clause would then normally be expressed in past perfect, as it
>>> is a "completed" action. (The fact that it didn't happen is over and done
>>> with.)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "If there had not been a coronavirus in 2020, Trump probably won that
>>> election" seems odd to me, especially coming from Axelrod. Ending on
>>> "probably won" gives the impression that Axelrod thinks Trump should be
>>> president, which is clearly not the case. That's not literally what the
>>> sentence says, but ending on that note gives that impression especially
>>> when so many nutters are actually claiming he won.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Removing the political considerations:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> "If the quarterback had not fumbled, the Jets probably won the game.”
>>>>> 
>>>>> The sports context is very much relevant to these. It’s not a simple
>>> narrative present because of the counterfactual nature.  I vaguely recall
>>> having participated in an earlier thread on these, or a variant in which
>>> *both* clauses are in the present, there’s counterfactual force, and the
>>> speaker/writer is likely a sports commentator (or player).  I call these
>>> SCFHP:  Sports Counterfactual Historical Present.  Kai von Fintel also
>>> discusses them and reports on an exchange in a 2004 entry in his blog:
>>> https://www.kaivonfintel.org/present-indicative-counterfactuals/ <
>>> https://www.kaivonfintel.org/present-indicative-counterfactuals/>
>>>>> 
>>>>> One of my favorite examples, from a NYT Dave Anderson column on the
>>> celebrated ex-Patriot kicker Adam Vinatieri,
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/sports/sports-of-the-times-with-vinatieri-colts-may-have-the-edge.html
>>> <
>>> https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/sports/sports-of-the-times-with-vinatieri-colts-may-have-the-edge.html
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> His even more important field goal was the 45-yarder in the snow that
>>> forced overtime against the Raiders in the playoffs after the 2001 season.
>>> “I think that’s the best kick I have ever seen.”  Belichick said in
>>> saluting Vinatieri for having broken Gino Cappelletti’s franchise record
>>> for points in a Dec. 4 game last season against the Jets. “Because of the
>>> conditions and because of what was at stake on that kick. I mean, that is
>>> the game. If he doesn’t make that kick, it is over. We don’t win that game
>>> without that kick. So that wasn’t the win, that was the tie, so it is over.”
>>>>> 
>>>>> If Vinatieri doesn’t make that kick in the snow, that Patriots team
>>> doesn’t go on to win the Super Bowl at the Louisiana Superdome on
>>> Vinatieri’s 48-yarder against the Rams as time expired.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Other examples from my collection; note that the first of these was
>>> posted on this list a quarter-century ago:
>>>>> 
>>>>> After a spectacular catch by David Justice that prevents the winning
>>> run from coming in,  the announcer says, “If Justice doesn't catch that
>>> it's a double and the go-ahead run is in.”
>>>>> 
>>>>> (posted by Bill Smith to ADS-L, 12 Oct. 1995, on World Series game)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> “If the shortstop doesn’t boot the easy double-play ball, nobody’s
>>> talking about the fan who interfered with Alou catching the foul ball.”
>>>>> (TV announcer after inning that cost Cubs 2003 pennant; note actual
>>> present counterfactual in apodosis)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> “If the ball [ground-rule double hit by Yankees’ Tony Clark] doesn’t
>>> bounce into the stands, the run scores and the game ends an hour and a half
>>> ago.”
>>>>> 
>>>>> (Fox TV analyst Tim McCarver over replay of crucial event in 9th
>>> inning of Game 5 that may have been the turning point in the 2004 ACLS
>>> comeback win by Red Sox over Yankees; note ago)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> "If he (Green) doesn't throw that cup, Artest doesn't go up into the
>>> stands.”
>>>>> 
>>>>> (Oakland County Prosecutor David Gorcyca, on filing charges for Nov.
>>> 19 brawl, including two counts of assault and battery filed against John
>>> Green; from ABC World News Tonight, 12/8/04; cf. “If Artest doesn’t go
>>> in(to) the stands […there is no riot]”:  72 google hits)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> non-overt conditional with tense shift:
>>>>> 
>>>>> from Avery Johnson, former guard and now assistant coach of the NBA
>>> Dallas Mavericks:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> “Last year, we don't win this game,” Johnson said.     (post-game TV
>>> news conf., 5/19/03)
>>>>> 
>>>>> ===============
>>>>> 
>>>>> The example we’ve been discussing is different because of the past
>>> tense in the antecedent, but it shares the property of having a
>>> counterfactual present in the consequent. The SCFHP version would be “If
>>> there isn’t a coronovirus in 2020, Trump probably wins that election”.
>>>>> 
>>>>> LH
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
> 
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