[Ads-l] Odd Sequence of Tenses

Tue Oct 26 13:36:08 UTC 2021

Quora:

"How effective would the [post-war] B-36 Peacemaker be if it gets into
World War II?"

For "have been...had gotten."

JL

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 12:42 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
wrote:

> > On Oct 13, 2021, at 12:26 PM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> wrote:
> >
> > Let's bear in mind that David Axelrod, whose usage started the thread,
> is a
> > former presidential adviser.
> >
> > JL
>
> And if Axelrod’s counterfactual ("If there had not been a coronavirus in
> 2020, Trump probably wins that election”), with pluperfect rather than
> present tense in the antecedent, like the FDR-inspired one Betty cites
> below but unlike the sportsworld cites from Ben Yagoda, David Carkeet, or
> me, it just goes to support the observation that “Politics ain’t
> beanbag”—or baseball, or football, or basketball, or…
>
> LH
>
> >
> > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 12:23 PM Jonathan Lighter <
> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Cool!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 11:21 AM Betty Birner <bbirner at niu.edu> wrote:
> >>
> >>> And just to add a non-sports example, there's this, from the 1995 movie
> >>> "The American President":
> >>>
> >>> "You've said it yourself a million times. If there had been a TV in
> every
> >>> living room sixty years ago, this country does not elect a man in a
> >>> wheelchair."
> >>>
> >>> Betty Birner
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> On Behalf Of
> >>> Laurence Horn
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2021 10:01 AM
> >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>> Subject: Re: Odd Sequence of Tenses
> >>>
> >>> Huzzah! No modesty needed, Ben. 12 years before David Carkeet’s “On
> >>> Language” column in the NYT Mag,
> >>>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2000/07/23/magazine/the-way-we-live-now-72300-on-language-batting-the-breeze.html
> ,
> >>> that doesn’t cite your earlier finding and dubbing.  If Carkeet cites
> you
> >>> in his 2000 “On Language” piece, the world is a fairer place (and
> maybe I
> >>> begin a data-exchanging correspondence with you 33 years ago instead of
> >>> with him 21 years ago).  On the other hand, Carkeet has published a
> couple
> >>> of novels with linguists as (anti-)heroes, so I don’t want to be too
> tough
> >>> on him.
> >>>
> >>> LH
> >>>
> >>>> On Oct 13, 2021, at 2:48 AM, Ben Yagoda <byagoda at UDEL.EDU> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I will immodestly note that I named and identified the “sports
> present”
> >>> back in 1988:
> >>>
> https://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/14/magazine/on-language-tense-talk.html <
> >>>
> https://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/14/magazine/on-language-tense-talk.html>
> >>>>
> >>>> Ben
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Date:    Tue, 12 Oct 2021 12:04:35 -0400
> >>>>> From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at YALE.EDU <mailto:
> >>> laurence.horn at YALE.EDU>>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: odd sequence of tenses
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Oct 12, 2021, at 9:07 AM, dave at wilton.net <mailto:
> dave at wilton.net>
> >>> <dave at WILTON.NET <mailto:dave at WILTON.NET>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I don't see anything odd at all, it's just the natural sequence of
> >>> tenses. The superordinate verb is in the historical present, so the
> time
> >>> frame of the entire sentence is the present. The lack of a pandemic in
> the
> >>> subordinate clause would then normally be expressed in past perfect,
> as it
> >>> is a "completed" action. (The fact that it didn't happen is over and
> done
> >>> with.)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "If there had not been a coronavirus in 2020, Trump probably won
> that
> >>> election" seems odd to me, especially coming from Axelrod. Ending on
> >>> "probably won" gives the impression that Axelrod thinks Trump should be
> >>> president, which is clearly not the case. That's not literally what the
> >>> sentence says, but ending on that note gives that impression especially
> >>> when so many nutters are actually claiming he won.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Removing the political considerations:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> "If the quarterback had not fumbled, the Jets probably won the
> game.”
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The sports context is very much relevant to these. It’s not a simple
> >>> narrative present because of the counterfactual nature.  I vaguely
> recall
> >>> having participated in an earlier thread on these, or a variant in
> which
> >>> *both* clauses are in the present, there’s counterfactual force, and
> the
> >>> speaker/writer is likely a sports commentator (or player).  I call
> these
> >>> SCFHP:  Sports Counterfactual Historical Present.  Kai von Fintel also
> >>> discusses them and reports on an exchange in a 2004 entry in his blog:
> >>> https://www.kaivonfintel.org/present-indicative-counterfactuals/ <
> >>> https://www.kaivonfintel.org/present-indicative-counterfactuals/>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> One of my favorite examples, from a NYT Dave Anderson column on the
> >>> celebrated ex-Patriot kicker Adam Vinatieri,
> >>>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/sports/sports-of-the-times-with-vinatieri-colts-may-have-the-edge.html
> >>> <
> >>>
> https://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/27/sports/sports-of-the-times-with-vinatieri-colts-may-have-the-edge.html
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> His even more important field goal was the 45-yarder in the snow that
> >>> forced overtime against the Raiders in the playoffs after the 2001
> season.
> >>> “I think that’s the best kick I have ever seen.”  Belichick said in
> >>> saluting Vinatieri for having broken Gino Cappelletti’s franchise
> record
> >>> for points in a Dec. 4 game last season against the Jets. “Because of
> the
> >>> conditions and because of what was at stake on that kick. I mean, that
> is
> >>> the game. If he doesn’t make that kick, it is over. We don’t win that
> game
> >>> without that kick. So that wasn’t the win, that was the tie, so it is
> over.”
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If Vinatieri doesn’t make that kick in the snow, that Patriots team
> >>> doesn’t go on to win the Super Bowl at the Louisiana Superdome on
> >>> Vinatieri’s 48-yarder against the Rams as time expired.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Other examples from my collection; note that the first of these was
> >>> posted on this list a quarter-century ago:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> After a spectacular catch by David Justice that prevents the winning
> >>> run from coming in,  the announcer says, “If Justice doesn't catch that
> >>> it's a double and the go-ahead run is in.”
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (posted by Bill Smith to ADS-L, 12 Oct. 1995, on World Series game)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> “If the shortstop doesn’t boot the easy double-play ball, nobody’s
> >>> talking about the fan who interfered with Alou catching the foul ball.”
> >>>>> (TV announcer after inning that cost Cubs 2003 pennant; note actual
> >>> present counterfactual in apodosis)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> “If the ball [ground-rule double hit by Yankees’ Tony Clark] doesn’t
> >>> bounce into the stands, the run scores and the game ends an hour and a
> half
> >>> ago.”
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (Fox TV analyst Tim McCarver over replay of crucial event in 9th
> >>> inning of Game 5 that may have been the turning point in the 2004 ACLS
> >>> comeback win by Red Sox over Yankees; note ago)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "If he (Green) doesn't throw that cup, Artest doesn't go up into the
> >>> stands.”
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (Oakland County Prosecutor David Gorcyca, on filing charges for Nov.
> >>> 19 brawl, including two counts of assault and battery filed against
> John
> >>> Green; from ABC World News Tonight, 12/8/04; cf. “If Artest doesn’t go
> >>> in(to) the stands […there is no riot]”:  72 google hits)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> non-overt conditional with tense shift:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> from Avery Johnson, former guard and now assistant coach of the NBA
> >>> Dallas Mavericks:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> “Last year, we don't win this game,” Johnson said.     (post-game TV
> >>> news conf., 5/19/03)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ===============
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The example we’ve been discussing is different because of the past
> >>> tense in the antecedent, but it shares the property of having a
> >>> counterfactual present in the consequent. The SCFHP version would be
> “If
> >>> there isn’t a coronovirus in 2020, Trump probably wins that election”.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> LH
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>
> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

-- 
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

------------------------------------------------------------
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