[Ads-l] punching up/down

[Ben Zimmer]

I was interviewed on the latest episode of the podcast Subtitle about the
"punching up/down" expression. I discussed the early examples I shared on
the list (as well as the one that Garson turned up), and the podcaster Nina
Porzucki did a great job of fleshing out the story.

https://subtitlepod.com/when-did-comedians-start-saying-punching-up-and-punching-down/


--Ben

On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 8:53 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Interesting topic, Ben,. There was a figurative instance of the phrase
> "punches down" in "The Times" of London in 2002. The phrase referred
> to a physical punch, but the term "down" was used metaphorically. The
> "up/down" framework corresponded to positions of power within a social
> hierarchy.
>
> The article began with a description of an incident in which Irish
> footballer Roy Keane was struck in the face by manager Brian Clough
> who screamed "Don't pass the ball back to the goalkeeper". Keane did
> not strike back at Clough because the event occurred when he was a new
> untested player, and he would've lost his position. The manager was
> not physically stronger or taller; instead, he had a higher social
> position.
>
> Date: August 21, 2002
> Newspaper: The Times
> Newspaper Location: London, England
> Article: The archaic art of hands-on management
> Author: Martin Samuel
> Quote Page 31, Column 6 and 7
> Database: Gale - The Times Digital Archive
>
> [Begin excerpt]
> Which makes football not so much a man’s world as a boy’s. It is the
> logic of the playground bully that allows a manager to strike a
> player. He punches down, not up.
> [End excerpt]
>
> One might say that the instance above is only partially metaphorical.
> Olbermann's use in 2006 referred to verbal jabs and not physical jabs.
>
> Garson O'Toole
> QuoteInvestigator.com
>
> On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 4:57 PM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > This newish idiom is making its way into dictionaries, but I don't think
> > we've discussed it here.
> >
> > ---
> > Collins:
> > https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/punch-down
> > punch down: to attack or criticize someone in a less powerful position
> > https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/punch-up
> > punch up: to attack or criticize someone in a position of greater power
> > ---
> > Macmillan:
> > https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/punch-down
> > punch down: to assert your authority over people who are less powerful
> than
> > you
> > [no corresponding entry for "punch up" in the relevant sense]
> > ---
> >
> > In boxing, "punching up" can refer to taking on an opponent who is taller
> > or in a higher weight class, and "punching down" is for an opponent who
> is
> > shorter or in a lower weight class.
> >
> > The earliest figurative usage I've found is from a 2006 New York Times
> > profile of Keith Olbermann, whose MSNBC show often targeted Bill O'Reilly
> > of Fox News.
> >
> > ---
> > https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/11/arts/television/11keit.html
> > New York Times, July 11, 2006
> > "You don't punch down," Mr. Olbermann said. "If you're in my position,"
> he
> > added, referring to his initially microscopic ratings next to Mr.
> > O'Reilly's, "you punch upwards."
> > ---
> >
> > Similarly, in a 2007 NPR interview with Olbermann:
> >
> > ---
> > https://www.npr.org/transcripts/16517458
> > NPR, Morning Edition, Nov. 23, 2007
> > [David Folkenflik:] Off the air, Olbermann explains why he takes such
> > delight in getting a rise out of a guy who draws three times the audience
> > he does.
> > [Keith Olbermann:] You punch upwards, not down. If I'm Bill O'Reilly, and
> > Keith Olbermann attacks me or criticizes me or analyzes what I'm saying,
> my
> > reaction is, who?
> > ---
> >
> > From a 2009 David Carr NYT column:
> >
> > ---
> > https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/weekinreview/18davidcarr.html
> > New York Times, Oct. 18, 2009
> > People who work in political communications have pointed out that it is a
> > principle of power dynamics to "punch up" -- that is, to take on bigger
> > foes, not smaller ones.
> > ---
> >
> > These days "punching up/down" is often heard in the context of comedy.
> The
> > earliest comedy-related examples I've found come from late 2010, when
> there
> > was some controversy over the standup act of British comedian Frankie
> > Boyle. On Dec. 23, two of his fellow comedians, Richard Herring and Paul
> > Sinha, chimed in online:
> >
> > ---
> > https://richardherring.com/warmingup/23/12/2010/index.html
> > Richard Herring (blog post), Dec. 23, 2010
> > Though there are no rules, comedy, I feel, should be siding with the weak
> > and the oppressed and punching either inwards (at the comedian him or
> > herself) or upwards (at the powerful or the oppressors). Punching
> downwards
> > is just bullying.
> > ---
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20101225040003/https://sinhaha.wordpress.com/2010/12/23/frankie-boyle-a-racist/
> > Paul Sinha (blog post), Dec. 23, 2010
> > Frankie is finally punching up and not punching down and I for one am not
> > in the least bit offended.
> > ---
> >
> > Richard Herring elaborated in an interview a few weeks later:
> >
> > ---
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20150805004615/https://www.louisewallis.net/richard-herring-interview/
> > Louise Wallis, Jan. 18, 2011
> > [Richard Herring:] For me, if I'm doing a joke I’d want to be on the side
> > of the weak punching the strong, rather than the strong bullying the
> > weak... There’s plenty of ways you can be offensive without 'punching
> > downwards'.
> > ---
> >
> > "Punching up/down" started appearing more frequently a couple of years
> > later, as in this from Emily Nussbaum in the New Yorker:
> >
> > ---
> > https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/09/30/color-commentary
> > New Yorker, Sept. 23, 2013
> > To modern joke critics, the key distinction between a good joke and a bad
> > one is supposed to be between "punching up" and "punching down" --
> taking a
> > cheap shot at someone who is already weaker than you.
> > ---
>

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