[Ads-l] punching up/down

Fri Apr 1 04:25:04 UTC 2022

A lot of the results from that Google search are for a 1990 interview that
Carlin did with Larry King on CNN, talking about Andrew Dice Clay. Carlin
doesn't actually say comedians like Clay should "punch up" and not "punch
down" in that interview -- though the sentiment is there, which is why the
video clip gets labeled that way retrospectively, e.g.:

https://isitfunnyoroffensive.com/george-carlin-didn't-like-comedians-punching-down/
<https://isitfunnyoroffensive.com/george-carlin-didnt-like-comedians-punching-down/>

(includes transcribed excerpts of the interview)

When I researched this, I didn't come across any verifiable examples of
Carlin using the expression. (He died in 2008, a couple of years before the
earliest examples I found in the context of comedy.) Carlin did have a bit
on his 1978 concert album "On the Road" about the violent language used to
describe stand-up comedy, though that was long before "punching up/down"
had entered comedy parlance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMQkXUht_hQ
Comics are supposed to worry about dying, you know? I don't want to die out
there, man. Jeez, I was dying. It was death out there. Like a morgue. On
the other hand, if he succeeds -- if he makes you laugh -- he can say, "I
killed 'em! Knocked 'em dead!" Why is there so much violence mixed up with
comedy, you know, which should be so much fun? It's all dying and bombing.
He bombed. Or else he was a riot! A real scream! Aaaugh! I cracked up
laughing! He broke me up, too. I busted a gut laughing! My friend was in
stitches! He fractures me with his punch lines...and his gags! Slapstick!
Knee-slapping! Side-splitting! Rib-splitting! Gut-busting! Laugh... I
thought I'd die.

--bgz

On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 11:27 PM Stanton McCandlish <smccandlish at gmail.com>
wrote:

> The first time I recall hearing/seeing this expression it was in an
> interview with comedian George Carlin.  But I wouldn't be able to precisely
> place that on a timeline.  Googling for it turns up a lot of hits:
> https://www.google.com/search?q=george+carlin+punch+up+not+down
>
> On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 7:25 PM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I was interviewed on the latest episode of the podcast Subtitle about the
> > "punching up/down" expression. I discussed the early examples I shared on
> > the list (as well as the one that Garson turned up), and the podcaster
> Nina
> > Porzucki did a great job of fleshing out the story.
> >
> >
> >
> https://subtitlepod.com/when-did-comedians-start-saying-punching-up-and-punching-down/
> >
> >
> > --Ben
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 8:53 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <
> > adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Interesting topic, Ben,. There was a figurative instance of the phrase
> > > "punches down" in "The Times" of London in 2002. The phrase referred
> > > to a physical punch, but the term "down" was used metaphorically. The
> > > "up/down" framework corresponded to positions of power within a social
> > > hierarchy.
> > >
> > > The article began with a description of an incident in which Irish
> > > footballer Roy Keane was struck in the face by manager Brian Clough
> > > who screamed "Don't pass the ball back to the goalkeeper". Keane did
> > > not strike back at Clough because the event occurred when he was a new
> > > untested player, and he would've lost his position. The manager was
> > > not physically stronger or taller; instead, he had a higher social
> > > position.
> > >
> > > Date: August 21, 2002
> > > Newspaper: The Times
> > > Newspaper Location: London, England
> > > Article: The archaic art of hands-on management
> > > Author: Martin Samuel
> > > Quote Page 31, Column 6 and 7
> > > Database: Gale - The Times Digital Archive
> > >
> > > [Begin excerpt]
> > > Which makes football not so much a man’s world as a boy’s. It is the
> > > logic of the playground bully that allows a manager to strike a
> > > player. He punches down, not up.
> > > [End excerpt]
> > >
> > > One might say that the instance above is only partially metaphorical.
> > > Olbermann's use in 2006 referred to verbal jabs and not physical jabs.
> > >
> > > Garson O'Toole
> > > QuoteInvestigator.com
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 4:57 PM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > This newish idiom is making its way into dictionaries, but I don't
> > think
> > > > we've discussed it here.
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > Collins:
> > > > https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/punch-down
> > > > punch down: to attack or criticize someone in a less powerful
> position
> > > > https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/punch-up
> > > > punch up: to attack or criticize someone in a position of greater
> power
> > > > ---
> > > > Macmillan:
> > > >
> https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/punch-down
> > > > punch down: to assert your authority over people who are less
> powerful
> > > than
> > > > you
> > > > [no corresponding entry for "punch up" in the relevant sense]
> > > > ---
> > > >
> > > > In boxing, "punching up" can refer to taking on an opponent who is
> > taller
> > > > or in a higher weight class, and "punching down" is for an opponent
> who
> > > is
> > > > shorter or in a lower weight class.
> > > >
> > > > The earliest figurative usage I've found is from a 2006 New York
> Times
> > > > profile of Keith Olbermann, whose MSNBC show often targeted Bill
> > O'Reilly
> > > > of Fox News.
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/11/arts/television/11keit.html
> > > > New York Times, July 11, 2006
> > > > "You don't punch down," Mr. Olbermann said. "If you're in my
> position,"
> > > he
> > > > added, referring to his initially microscopic ratings next to Mr.
> > > > O'Reilly's, "you punch upwards."
> > > > ---
> > > >
> > > > Similarly, in a 2007 NPR interview with Olbermann:
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > https://www.npr.org/transcripts/16517458
> > > > NPR, Morning Edition, Nov. 23, 2007
> > > > [David Folkenflik:] Off the air, Olbermann explains why he takes such
> > > > delight in getting a rise out of a guy who draws three times the
> > audience
> > > > he does.
> > > > [Keith Olbermann:] You punch upwards, not down. If I'm Bill O'Reilly,
> > and
> > > > Keith Olbermann attacks me or criticizes me or analyzes what I'm
> > saying,
> > > my
> > > > reaction is, who?
> > > > ---
> > > >
> > > > From a 2009 David Carr NYT column:
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/weekinreview/18davidcarr.html
> > > > New York Times, Oct. 18, 2009
> > > > People who work in political communications have pointed out that it
> > is a
> > > > principle of power dynamics to "punch up" -- that is, to take on
> bigger
> > > > foes, not smaller ones.
> > > > ---
> > > >
> > > > These days "punching up/down" is often heard in the context of
> comedy.
> > > The
> > > > earliest comedy-related examples I've found come from late 2010, when
> > > there
> > > > was some controversy over the standup act of British comedian Frankie
> > > > Boyle. On Dec. 23, two of his fellow comedians, Richard Herring and
> > Paul
> > > > Sinha, chimed in online:
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > https://richardherring.com/warmingup/23/12/2010/index.html
> > > > Richard Herring (blog post), Dec. 23, 2010
> > > > Though there are no rules, comedy, I feel, should be siding with the
> > weak
> > > > and the oppressed and punching either inwards (at the comedian him or
> > > > herself) or upwards (at the powerful or the oppressors). Punching
> > > downwards
> > > > is just bullying.
> > > > ---
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20101225040003/https://sinhaha.wordpress.com/2010/12/23/frankie-boyle-a-racist/
> > > > Paul Sinha (blog post), Dec. 23, 2010
> > > > Frankie is finally punching up and not punching down and I for one am
> > not
> > > > in the least bit offended.
> > > > ---
> > > >
> > > > Richard Herring elaborated in an interview a few weeks later:
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20150805004615/https://www.louisewallis.net/richard-herring-interview/
> > > > Louise Wallis, Jan. 18, 2011
> > > > [Richard Herring:] For me, if I'm doing a joke I’d want to be on the
> > side
> > > > of the weak punching the strong, rather than the strong bullying the
> > > > weak... There’s plenty of ways you can be offensive without 'punching
> > > > downwards'.
> > > > ---
> > > >
> > > > "Punching up/down" started appearing more frequently a couple of
> years
> > > > later, as in this from Emily Nussbaum in the New Yorker:
> > > >
> > > > ---
> > > > https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/09/30/color-commentary
> > > > New Yorker, Sept. 23, 2013
> > > > To modern joke critics, the key distinction between a good joke and a
> > bad
> > > > one is supposed to be between "punching up" and "punching down" --
> > > taking a
> > > > cheap shot at someone who is already weaker than you.
> > > > ---
>

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