[Ads-l] punching up/down

Fri Apr 1 09:48:29 UTC 2022

It might have been in the long interview he did in 2008 for Archive of
American Television.  I think that's on one of the DVD sets, but I'm having
a hard time finding an online copy of it (just "part 5 of 7" here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IJwQ3GClwY&t=1383s ).

On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 9:25 PM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:

> A lot of the results from that Google search are for a 1990 interview that
> Carlin did with Larry King on CNN, talking about Andrew Dice Clay. Carlin
> doesn't actually say comedians like Clay should "punch up" and not "punch
> down" in that interview -- though the sentiment is there, which is why the
> video clip gets labeled that way retrospectively, e.g.:
>
>
> https://isitfunnyoroffensive.com/george-carlin-didn't-like-comedians-punching-down/
> <
> https://isitfunnyoroffensive.com/george-carlin-didnt-like-comedians-punching-down/
> >
>
> (includes transcribed excerpts of the interview)
>
> When I researched this, I didn't come across any verifiable examples of
> Carlin using the expression. (He died in 2008, a couple of years before the
> earliest examples I found in the context of comedy.) Carlin did have a bit
> on his 1978 concert album "On the Road" about the violent language used to
> describe stand-up comedy, though that was long before "punching up/down"
> had entered comedy parlance.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMQkXUht_hQ
> Comics are supposed to worry about dying, you know? I don't want to die out
> there, man. Jeez, I was dying. It was death out there. Like a morgue. On
> the other hand, if he succeeds -- if he makes you laugh -- he can say, "I
> killed 'em! Knocked 'em dead!" Why is there so much violence mixed up with
> comedy, you know, which should be so much fun? It's all dying and bombing.
> He bombed. Or else he was a riot! A real scream! Aaaugh! I cracked up
> laughing! He broke me up, too. I busted a gut laughing! My friend was in
> stitches! He fractures me with his punch lines...and his gags! Slapstick!
> Knee-slapping! Side-splitting! Rib-splitting! Gut-busting! Laugh... I
> thought I'd die.
>
> --bgz
>
> On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 11:27 PM Stanton McCandlish <smccandlish at gmail.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > The first time I recall hearing/seeing this expression it was in an
> > interview with comedian George Carlin.  But I wouldn't be able to
> precisely
> > place that on a timeline.  Googling for it turns up a lot of hits:
> > https://www.google.com/search?q=george+carlin+punch+up+not+down
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 7:25 PM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I was interviewed on the latest episode of the podcast Subtitle about
> the
> > > "punching up/down" expression. I discussed the early examples I shared
> on
> > > the list (as well as the one that Garson turned up), and the podcaster
> > Nina
> > > Porzucki did a great job of fleshing out the story.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://subtitlepod.com/when-did-comedians-start-saying-punching-up-and-punching-down/
> > >
> > >
> > > --Ben
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 8:53 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <
> > > adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Interesting topic, Ben,. There was a figurative instance of the
> phrase
> > > > "punches down" in "The Times" of London in 2002. The phrase referred
> > > > to a physical punch, but the term "down" was used metaphorically. The
> > > > "up/down" framework corresponded to positions of power within a
> social
> > > > hierarchy.
> > > >
> > > > The article began with a description of an incident in which Irish
> > > > footballer Roy Keane was struck in the face by manager Brian Clough
> > > > who screamed "Don't pass the ball back to the goalkeeper". Keane did
> > > > not strike back at Clough because the event occurred when he was a
> new
> > > > untested player, and he would've lost his position. The manager was
> > > > not physically stronger or taller; instead, he had a higher social
> > > > position.
> > > >
> > > > Date: August 21, 2002
> > > > Newspaper: The Times
> > > > Newspaper Location: London, England
> > > > Article: The archaic art of hands-on management
> > > > Author: Martin Samuel
> > > > Quote Page 31, Column 6 and 7
> > > > Database: Gale - The Times Digital Archive
> > > >
> > > > [Begin excerpt]
> > > > Which makes football not so much a man’s world as a boy’s. It is the
> > > > logic of the playground bully that allows a manager to strike a
> > > > player. He punches down, not up.
> > > > [End excerpt]
> > > >
> > > > One might say that the instance above is only partially metaphorical.
> > > > Olbermann's use in 2006 referred to verbal jabs and not physical
> jabs.
> > > >
> > > > Garson O'Toole
> > > > QuoteInvestigator.com
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 4:57 PM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > This newish idiom is making its way into dictionaries, but I don't
> > > think
> > > > > we've discussed it here.
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > Collins:
> > > > > https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/punch-down
> > > > > punch down: to attack or criticize someone in a less powerful
> > position
> > > > > https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/punch-up
> > > > > punch up: to attack or criticize someone in a position of greater
> > power
> > > > > ---
> > > > > Macmillan:
> > > > >
> > https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/punch-down
> > > > > punch down: to assert your authority over people who are less
> > powerful
> > > > than
> > > > > you
> > > > > [no corresponding entry for "punch up" in the relevant sense]
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > In boxing, "punching up" can refer to taking on an opponent who is
> > > taller
> > > > > or in a higher weight class, and "punching down" is for an opponent
> > who
> > > > is
> > > > > shorter or in a lower weight class.
> > > > >
> > > > > The earliest figurative usage I've found is from a 2006 New York
> > Times
> > > > > profile of Keith Olbermann, whose MSNBC show often targeted Bill
> > > O'Reilly
> > > > > of Fox News.
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/11/arts/television/11keit.html
> > > > > New York Times, July 11, 2006
> > > > > "You don't punch down," Mr. Olbermann said. "If you're in my
> > position,"
> > > > he
> > > > > added, referring to his initially microscopic ratings next to Mr.
> > > > > O'Reilly's, "you punch upwards."
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > Similarly, in a 2007 NPR interview with Olbermann:
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > https://www.npr.org/transcripts/16517458
> > > > > NPR, Morning Edition, Nov. 23, 2007
> > > > > [David Folkenflik:] Off the air, Olbermann explains why he takes
> such
> > > > > delight in getting a rise out of a guy who draws three times the
> > > audience
> > > > > he does.
> > > > > [Keith Olbermann:] You punch upwards, not down. If I'm Bill
> O'Reilly,
> > > and
> > > > > Keith Olbermann attacks me or criticizes me or analyzes what I'm
> > > saying,
> > > > my
> > > > > reaction is, who?
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > From a 2009 David Carr NYT column:
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/weekinreview/18davidcarr.html
> > > > > New York Times, Oct. 18, 2009
> > > > > People who work in political communications have pointed out that
> it
> > > is a
> > > > > principle of power dynamics to "punch up" -- that is, to take on
> > bigger
> > > > > foes, not smaller ones.
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > These days "punching up/down" is often heard in the context of
> > comedy.
> > > > The
> > > > > earliest comedy-related examples I've found come from late 2010,
> when
> > > > there
> > > > > was some controversy over the standup act of British comedian
> Frankie
> > > > > Boyle. On Dec. 23, two of his fellow comedians, Richard Herring and
> > > Paul
> > > > > Sinha, chimed in online:
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > https://richardherring.com/warmingup/23/12/2010/index.html
> > > > > Richard Herring (blog post), Dec. 23, 2010
> > > > > Though there are no rules, comedy, I feel, should be siding with
> the
> > > weak
> > > > > and the oppressed and punching either inwards (at the comedian him
> or
> > > > > herself) or upwards (at the powerful or the oppressors). Punching
> > > > downwards
> > > > > is just bullying.
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20101225040003/https://sinhaha.wordpress.com/2010/12/23/frankie-boyle-a-racist/
> > > > > Paul Sinha (blog post), Dec. 23, 2010
> > > > > Frankie is finally punching up and not punching down and I for one
> am
> > > not
> > > > > in the least bit offended.
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > Richard Herring elaborated in an interview a few weeks later:
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://web.archive.org/web/20150805004615/https://www.louisewallis.net/richard-herring-interview/
> > > > > Louise Wallis, Jan. 18, 2011
> > > > > [Richard Herring:] For me, if I'm doing a joke I’d want to be on
> the
> > > side
> > > > > of the weak punching the strong, rather than the strong bullying
> the
> > > > > weak... There’s plenty of ways you can be offensive without
> 'punching
> > > > > downwards'.
> > > > > ---
> > > > >
> > > > > "Punching up/down" started appearing more frequently a couple of
> > years
> > > > > later, as in this from Emily Nussbaum in the New Yorker:
> > > > >
> > > > > ---
> > > > > https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/09/30/color-commentary
> > > > > New Yorker, Sept. 23, 2013
> > > > > To modern joke critics, the key distinction between a good joke
> and a
> > > bad
> > > > > one is supposed to be between "punching up" and "punching down" --
> > > > taking a
> > > > > cheap shot at someone who is already weaker than you.
> > > > > ---
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
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>

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