[Ads-l] punching up/down

Fri Apr 1 11:56:26 UTC 2022

Ben presents an excellent explanation of the evolution of "punching
up/down" during the podcast. Congratulations to Nina Porzucki, Patrick
Cox, Ben, and all the participants. It's a top-notch production
containing remarks from comedian Richard Herring and well-selected
audio excerpts from Dave Chappelle, Roy Keane, Keith Olbermann, and
others.

Glad to hear that the citation I uncovered was helpful in illustrating
the transition from a literal sense to a figurative sense.

Garson

On Thu, Mar 31, 2022 at 10:25 PM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I was interviewed on the latest episode of the podcast Subtitle about the
> "punching up/down" expression. I discussed the early examples I shared on
> the list (as well as the one that Garson turned up), and the podcaster Nina
> Porzucki did a great job of fleshing out the story.
>
> https://subtitlepod.com/when-did-comedians-start-saying-punching-up-and-punching-down/
>
>
> --Ben
>
> On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 8:53 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Interesting topic, Ben,. There was a figurative instance of the phrase
> > "punches down" in "The Times" of London in 2002. The phrase referred
> > to a physical punch, but the term "down" was used metaphorically. The
> > "up/down" framework corresponded to positions of power within a social
> > hierarchy.
> >
> > The article began with a description of an incident in which Irish
> > footballer Roy Keane was struck in the face by manager Brian Clough
> > who screamed "Don't pass the ball back to the goalkeeper". Keane did
> > not strike back at Clough because the event occurred when he was a new
> > untested player, and he would've lost his position. The manager was
> > not physically stronger or taller; instead, he had a higher social
> > position.
> >
> > Date: August 21, 2002
> > Newspaper: The Times
> > Newspaper Location: London, England
> > Article: The archaic art of hands-on management
> > Author: Martin Samuel
> > Quote Page 31, Column 6 and 7
> > Database: Gale - The Times Digital Archive
> >
> > [Begin excerpt]
> > Which makes football not so much a man’s world as a boy’s. It is the
> > logic of the playground bully that allows a manager to strike a
> > player. He punches down, not up.
> > [End excerpt]
> >
> > One might say that the instance above is only partially metaphorical.
> > Olbermann's use in 2006 referred to verbal jabs and not physical jabs.
> >
> > Garson O'Toole
> > QuoteInvestigator.com
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 4:57 PM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > This newish idiom is making its way into dictionaries, but I don't think
> > > we've discussed it here.
> > >
> > > ---
> > > Collins:
> > > https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/punch-down
> > > punch down: to attack or criticize someone in a less powerful position
> > > https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/punch-up
> > > punch up: to attack or criticize someone in a position of greater power
> > > ---
> > > Macmillan:
> > > https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/punch-down
> > > punch down: to assert your authority over people who are less powerful
> > than
> > > you
> > > [no corresponding entry for "punch up" in the relevant sense]
> > > ---
> > >
> > > In boxing, "punching up" can refer to taking on an opponent who is taller
> > > or in a higher weight class, and "punching down" is for an opponent who
> > is
> > > shorter or in a lower weight class.
> > >
> > > The earliest figurative usage I've found is from a 2006 New York Times
> > > profile of Keith Olbermann, whose MSNBC show often targeted Bill O'Reilly
> > > of Fox News.
> > >
> > > ---
> > > https://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/11/arts/television/11keit.html
> > > New York Times, July 11, 2006
> > > "You don't punch down," Mr. Olbermann said. "If you're in my position,"
> > he
> > > added, referring to his initially microscopic ratings next to Mr.
> > > O'Reilly's, "you punch upwards."
> > > ---
> > >
> > > Similarly, in a 2007 NPR interview with Olbermann:
> > >
> > > ---
> > > https://www.npr.org/transcripts/16517458
> > > NPR, Morning Edition, Nov. 23, 2007
> > > [David Folkenflik:] Off the air, Olbermann explains why he takes such
> > > delight in getting a rise out of a guy who draws three times the audience
> > > he does.
> > > [Keith Olbermann:] You punch upwards, not down. If I'm Bill O'Reilly, and
> > > Keith Olbermann attacks me or criticizes me or analyzes what I'm saying,
> > my
> > > reaction is, who?
> > > ---
> > >
> > > From a 2009 David Carr NYT column:
> > >
> > > ---
> > > https://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/18/weekinreview/18davidcarr.html
> > > New York Times, Oct. 18, 2009
> > > People who work in political communications have pointed out that it is a
> > > principle of power dynamics to "punch up" -- that is, to take on bigger
> > > foes, not smaller ones.
> > > ---
> > >
> > > These days "punching up/down" is often heard in the context of comedy.
> > The
> > > earliest comedy-related examples I've found come from late 2010, when
> > there
> > > was some controversy over the standup act of British comedian Frankie
> > > Boyle. On Dec. 23, two of his fellow comedians, Richard Herring and Paul
> > > Sinha, chimed in online:
> > >
> > > ---
> > > https://richardherring.com/warmingup/23/12/2010/index.html
> > > Richard Herring (blog post), Dec. 23, 2010
> > > Though there are no rules, comedy, I feel, should be siding with the weak
> > > and the oppressed and punching either inwards (at the comedian him or
> > > herself) or upwards (at the powerful or the oppressors). Punching
> > downwards
> > > is just bullying.
> > > ---
> > >
> > https://web.archive.org/web/20101225040003/https://sinhaha.wordpress.com/2010/12/23/frankie-boyle-a-racist/
> > > Paul Sinha (blog post), Dec. 23, 2010
> > > Frankie is finally punching up and not punching down and I for one am not
> > > in the least bit offended.
> > > ---
> > >
> > > Richard Herring elaborated in an interview a few weeks later:
> > >
> > > ---
> > >
> > https://web.archive.org/web/20150805004615/https://www.louisewallis.net/richard-herring-interview/
> > > Louise Wallis, Jan. 18, 2011
> > > [Richard Herring:] For me, if I'm doing a joke I’d want to be on the side
> > > of the weak punching the strong, rather than the strong bullying the
> > > weak... There’s plenty of ways you can be offensive without 'punching
> > > downwards'.
> > > ---
> > >
> > > "Punching up/down" started appearing more frequently a couple of years
> > > later, as in this from Emily Nussbaum in the New Yorker:
> > >
> > > ---
> > > https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/09/30/color-commentary
> > > New Yorker, Sept. 23, 2013
> > > To modern joke critics, the key distinction between a good joke and a bad
> > > one is supposed to be between "punching up" and "punching down" --
> > taking a
> > > cheap shot at someone who is already weaker than you.
> > > ---
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
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The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org