[Ads-l] "I say...Lusitani-ay"

Tue Aug 30 13:43:12 UTC 2022

One article [1] on the poem includes:  "It has attracted almost no criticism.2 But, set in context, it seems to me more interesting than it appears." But no comment on the end rhyme.

For a different view, The Independent, Feb. 6, 1879 12/3 [2]:

"...a thin sonnet, which ends with the astonishing line....
in which Lusitania rhymes with 'say' and 'day.'"

sg
[1]
https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/84957/3/MATTHEWARNOLDANDTHELUSITANIA%5B1%5D.pdf

[2]
https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Independent/hMsxAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=day+say+Lusitania+rhyme+lusitania-y&pg=RA5-PA12&printsec=frontcover
[https://books.google.com/books/content?id=hMsxAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE70_WHW_eicBg8hGxfLBDMhNf9CFFRlfsnKup2-a0-0I5L8IXDit3ihVoH0hVNx404DkyPSTpVf0D2dficZeX0AFvJZPSALd_hKNjBgFr386zoBDEIA5jEhcGSYq2J02Gm6YCj1f]<https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Independent/hMsxAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=day+say+Lusitania+rhyme+lusitania-y&pg=RA5-PA12&printsec=frontcover>
The Independent<https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Independent/hMsxAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=day+say+Lusitania+rhyme+lusitania-y&pg=RA5-PA12&printsec=frontcover>
/
www.google.com

________________________________
From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 8:18 AM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: "I say...Lusitani-ay"

Most interesting. After sixteen years I'm still amazed at Arnold's rhyme in
formal English.

JL

On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 4:51 AM Geoffrey Nathan <geoffnathan at wayne.edu>
wrote:

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>
> Geoff
>
>
> Geoffrey S. Nathan
> WSU Information Privacy Officer (Retired)
> Emeritus Professor, Linguistics Program
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://clasprofiles.wayne.edu/profile/an6993__;!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF58KE2nyXA$
> geoffnathan at wayne.edu
>
> From: Wilson Gray<mailto:hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 12:45 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Subject: Re: "I say...Lusitani-ay"
>
> [EXTERNAL]
>
> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> -----------------------
> Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> Subject:      Re: "I say...Lusitani-ay"
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> books.google.com =E2=80=BA books
> <
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>
> en+of+iow-ay&hl=3Den&newbks=3D1&newbks_redir=3D0&sa=3DX&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj6=
> 2u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ6AF6BAgjEAI
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=3DZWpAAQAAMAAJ&pg=3DRA1-PA15&dq=3Dwere*m=en*of*iow-ay&hl=3Den&newbks=3D1&newbks_redir=3D0&sa=3DX&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj6=2u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ6AF6BAgjEAI__;Kysr!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF59F9hNWfA$  >
> >
> Adventures of the _Ojibbeway_ and _Ioway_ Indians in England, ... - Page 15
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=3DZWpAAQAAMAAJ&pg=3DRA1-PA15&dq=3Dwere*m=__;Kw!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF586MDigOQ$
>
> en+of+iow-ay&hl=3Den&newbks=3D1&newbks_redir=3D0&sa=3DX&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj6=
> 2u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ6AF6BAgjEAI
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=3DZWpAAQAAMAAJ&pg=3DRA1-PA15&dq=3Dwere*m=en*of*iow-ay&hl=3Den&newbks=3D1&newbks_redir=3D0&sa=3DX&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj6=2u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ6AF6BAgjEAI__;Kysr!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF59F9hNWfA$  >
> >
> George Catlin
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=3D1&sa=3DX&biw=3D2560&bih=3D1222&t=__;!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF5-8jO85XQ$
>
> bs=3Dcdr:1,cd_min:1800,cd_max:1899&tbm=3Dbks&tbm=3Dbks&q=3Dinauthor:%22Geor=
> ge+Catlin%22&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj62u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ9Ah6BAgjEAU
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=3D1&sa=3DX&biw=3D2560&bih=3D1222&t=bs=3Dcdr:1,cd_min:1800,cd_max:1899&tbm=3Dbks&tbm=3Dbks&q=3Dinauthor:*22Geor=ge*Catlin*22&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj62u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ9Ah6BAgjEAU__;JSsl!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF5-9dPjCvg$  >
> >
>  =C2=B7 1852
>
> The Ojiaby are also known as the _Chippewa_ and the the IIoway_ are now
> better known as the _Iowa_.
>
> Amongst elderly colored people, such as the writer, the state of Iowa and
> its university is known as "Ioway."
> During Jim Crow, Southern states would pay to send black students to
> Northern state universities, rather than admit them to the local state
> universities. My other's sister nd several of my St. Louis friends. went to
> "Ioway."
>
> On Mon, Aug 29, 2022 at 6:00 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > The Evening Herald (Ottawa, Kans.) (May 25, 1912), p. 1:
> >
> > Around her neck she wore a yellow ribbon,
> > She wore it in December and in the month of May;
> > And when they asked her why, oh why, she wore it,
> > She said 'twas for the U.C.T. that came from Ottawa.
> > Far away, etc.
> >
> >
> > JL
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 10:31 PM Jonathan Lighter <
> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com=
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > _The Jolly Tar's Garland _(n.p., n.d), p.2, dated by ECCO to "1780?"
> > Lots
> > > of long esses, capitalized nouns, and italics in this 8pp chapbook.
> > >
> > > Oh! the French hath broke our Peace Boys,
> > >       In the Lands of America,
> > > But Royal George of England
> > >       Is Governor by Sea.
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > > On Mon, Oct 2, 2006 at 10:18 AM Jonathan Lighter <
> wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.co=
> m
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> That could be the explanation, but in Arnold's case it comes in the
> ve=
> ry
> > >> final word of the poem. This creates, to my ear and sensibility, an
> > >> extremely bathetic fall that I'd have thought Arnold would have
> > eschewed.
> > >>
> > >> What I'm getting at, with the help of Gabby Hayes, is the possibility
> > >> that "Californiay," "Lusitaniay," and "Asiay" (or something closer to
> > >> monophtongal / e /) may once have been standard pronunciations.( / E /
> > in
> > >> both "say" and "Lusitania" seems like a plausible alternative.)
> > >>
> > >> My own phonology calls for / s Ei / and Lusitani / ^ /.  Pretty
> bathet=
> ic
> > >> in combination.
> > >>
> > >> JL
> > >>
> > >> *Charles Doyle <cdoyle at UGA.EDU <cdoyle at UGA.EDU>>* wrote:
> > >>
> > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > >> -----------------------
> > >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > >> Poster: Charles Doyle
> > >> Subject: Re: "I say...Lusitani-ay"
> > >>
> > >>
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> ------
> > >>
> > >> Or is it poetic license? There may have existed certain sorts of
> "rhym=
> e"
> > >> that were (by tradition) deemed poetically acceptable whether or not
> > they
> > >> correlated much with anybody's pronunciation.
> > >>
> > >> John Donne (c1600), in his "Valediction: Of Weeping," used a similar
> > >> rhyme: "On a round ball / A workeman that hath copies by, can lay / An
> > >> Europe, Afrique, and an Asia, / And quickly make that, which was
> > nothing,
> > >> all."
> > >>
> > >> --Charlie
> > >> ____________________________________________
> > >>
> > >> ---- Original message ----
> > >> >Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 06:41:59 -0700
> > >> >From: Jonathan Lighter
> > >> >Subject: "I say...Lusitani-ay"
> > >> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >> >
> > >> >In 1879 Matthew Arnold wrote a sonnet titled "S. S. Lusitania"
> > >> concerning an offspring's voyage on the ship of that name (not the one
> > >> torpedoed in 1915).
> > >> >
> > >> > At the conclusion of this very serious sonnet, Arnold rhymes
> > >> "Lusitania" with "I say."
> > >>
> > >> > This is obviously not "eye-rhyme" and seems unlikely to me to be
> > "slant
> > >> rhyme." It reminds me instead of how character actors like Gabby Hayes
> > used
> > >> to pronounce "California" in old westerns.
> > >> >
> > >> > Does anyone know enough about standard mid-Victorian pronunciation
> > >> and/or poetic practice to elucidate this "rhyme" ? Did Arnold have
> som=
> e
> > >> in-between diphthong in both words ?
> > >> >
> > >> > JL
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> The American Dialect Society - https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.americandialect.org__;!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF58ZCiui5g$
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ------------------------------
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> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > --
> > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > truth."
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth=
> ."
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
>
>
> --=20
> - Wilson
> -----
> All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
> come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> -Mark Twain
>
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--
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

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