[Ads-l] "I say...Lusitani-ay"

Tue Aug 30 16:03:16 UTC 2022

I'm likewise astonished because -ay for -a is (in my personal experience)
long been regarded as rare, rural ,and far more frowned upon than the
prudent use of "ain't."

JL

On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 9:43 AM Stephen Goranson <goranson at duke.edu> wrote:

> One article [1] on the poem includes:  "It has attracted almost no
> criticism.2 But, set in context, it seems to me more interesting than it
> appears." But no comment on the end rhyme.
>
> For a different view, The Independent, Feb. 6, 1879 12/3 [2]:
>
> "...a thin sonnet, which ends with the astonishing line....
> in which Lusitania rhymes with 'say' and 'day.'"
>
> sg
> [1]
>
> https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/84957/3/MATTHEWARNOLDANDTHELUSITANIA%5B1%5D.pdf
>
> [2]
>
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Independent/hMsxAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=day+say+Lusitania+rhyme+lusitania-y&pg=RA5-PA12&printsec=frontcover
> [
> https://books.google.com/books/content?id=hMsxAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE70_WHW_eicBg8hGxfLBDMhNf9CFFRlfsnKup2-a0-0I5L8IXDit3ihVoH0hVNx404DkyPSTpVf0D2dficZeX0AFvJZPSALd_hKNjBgFr386zoBDEIA5jEhcGSYq2J02Gm6YCj1f
> ]<
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Independent/hMsxAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=day+say+Lusitania+rhyme+lusitania-y&pg=RA5-PA12&printsec=frontcover
> >
> The Independent<
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Independent/hMsxAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=day+say+Lusitania+rhyme+lusitania-y&pg=RA5-PA12&printsec=frontcover
> >
> /
> www.google.com
>
> ________________________________
> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 8:18 AM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Subject: Re: "I say...Lusitani-ay"
>
> Most interesting. After sixteen years I'm still amazed at Arnold's rhyme in
> formal English.
>
> JL
>
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 4:51 AM Geoffrey Nathan <geoffnathan at wayne.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > Those who spend much time on North American highways have
> > probably seen trucks from the 'Ottaway Motor Express',
> > a Canadian transit company based in Woodstock, Ontario:
> >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bit.ly/3cqalop__;!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF5_MPC_biA$
> >
> > Geoff
> >
> >
> > Geoffrey S. Nathan
> > WSU Information Privacy Officer (Retired)
> > Emeritus Professor, Linguistics Program
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://clasprofiles.wayne.edu/profile/an6993__;!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF58KE2nyXA$
> > geoffnathan at wayne.edu
> >
> > From: Wilson Gray<mailto:hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 12:45 AM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Subject: Re: "I say...Lusitani-ay"
> >
> > [EXTERNAL]
> >
> > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > -----------------------
> > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> > Subject:      Re: "I say...Lusitani-ay"
> >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > books.google.com =E2=80=BA books
> > <
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=3DZWpAAQAAMAAJ&pg=3DRA1-PA15&dq=3Dwere*m=__;Kw!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF586MDigOQ$
> >
> >
> en+of+iow-ay&hl=3Den&newbks=3D1&newbks_redir=3D0&sa=3DX&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj6=
> > 2u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ6AF6BAgjEAI
> > <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=3DZWpAAQAAMAAJ&pg=3DRA1-PA15&dq=3Dwere*m=en*of*iow-ay&hl=3Den&newbks=3D1&newbks_redir=3D0&sa=3DX&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj6=2u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ6AF6BAgjEAI__;Kysr!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF59F9hNWfA$
> >
> > >
> > Adventures of the _Ojibbeway_ and _Ioway_ Indians in England, ... - Page
> 15
> > <
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=3DZWpAAQAAMAAJ&pg=3DRA1-PA15&dq=3Dwere*m=__;Kw!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF586MDigOQ$
> >
> >
> en+of+iow-ay&hl=3Den&newbks=3D1&newbks_redir=3D0&sa=3DX&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj6=
> > 2u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ6AF6BAgjEAI
> > <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=3DZWpAAQAAMAAJ&pg=3DRA1-PA15&dq=3Dwere*m=en*of*iow-ay&hl=3Den&newbks=3D1&newbks_redir=3D0&sa=3DX&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj6=2u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ6AF6BAgjEAI__;Kysr!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF59F9hNWfA$
> >
> > >
> > George Catlin
> > <
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=3D1&sa=3DX&biw=3D2560&bih=3D1222&t=__;!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF5-8jO85XQ$
> >
> >
> bs=3Dcdr:1,cd_min:1800,cd_max:1899&tbm=3Dbks&tbm=3Dbks&q=3Dinauthor:%22Geor=
> > ge+Catlin%22&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj62u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ9Ah6BAgjEAU
> > <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=3D1&sa=3DX&biw=3D2560&bih=3D1222&t=bs=3Dcdr:1,cd_min:1800,cd_max:1899&tbm=3Dbks&tbm=3Dbks&q=3Dinauthor:*22Geor=ge*Catlin*22&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj62u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ9Ah6BAgjEAU__;JSsl!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF5-9dPjCvg$
> >
> > >
> >  =C2=B7 1852
> >
> > The Ojiaby are also known as the _Chippewa_ and the the IIoway_ are now
> > better known as the _Iowa_.
> >
> > Amongst elderly colored people, such as the writer, the state of Iowa and
> > its university is known as "Ioway."
> > During Jim Crow, Southern states would pay to send black students to
> > Northern state universities, rather than admit them to the local state
> > universities. My other's sister nd several of my St. Louis friends. went
> to
> > "Ioway."
> >
> > On Mon, Aug 29, 2022 at 6:00 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > The Evening Herald (Ottawa, Kans.) (May 25, 1912), p. 1:
> > >
> > > Around her neck she wore a yellow ribbon,
> > > She wore it in December and in the month of May;
> > > And when they asked her why, oh why, she wore it,
> > > She said 'twas for the U.C.T. that came from Ottawa.
> > > Far away, etc.
> > >
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 10:31 PM Jonathan Lighter <
> > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com=
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > _The Jolly Tar's Garland _(n.p., n.d), p.2, dated by ECCO to "1780?"
> > > Lots
> > > > of long esses, capitalized nouns, and italics in this 8pp chapbook.
> > > >
> > > > Oh! the French hath broke our Peace Boys,
> > > >       In the Lands of America,
> > > > But Royal George of England
> > > >       Is Governor by Sea.
> > > >
> > > > JL
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Oct 2, 2006 at 10:18 AM Jonathan Lighter <
> > wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.co=
> > m
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> That could be the explanation, but in Arnold's case it comes in the
> > ve=
> > ry
> > > >> final word of the poem. This creates, to my ear and sensibility, an
> > > >> extremely bathetic fall that I'd have thought Arnold would have
> > > eschewed.
> > > >>
> > > >> What I'm getting at, with the help of Gabby Hayes, is the
> possibility
> > > >> that "Californiay," "Lusitaniay," and "Asiay" (or something closer
> to
> > > >> monophtongal / e /) may once have been standard pronunciations.( /
> E /
> > > in
> > > >> both "say" and "Lusitania" seems like a plausible alternative.)
> > > >>
> > > >> My own phonology calls for / s Ei / and Lusitani / ^ /.  Pretty
> > bathet=
> > ic
> > > >> in combination.
> > > >>
> > > >> JL
> > > >>
> > > >> *Charles Doyle <cdoyle at UGA.EDU <cdoyle at UGA.EDU>>* wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > >> -----------------------
> > > >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > >> Poster: Charles Doyle
> > > >> Subject: Re: "I say...Lusitani-ay"
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > ------
> > > >>
> > > >> Or is it poetic license? There may have existed certain sorts of
> > "rhym=
> > e"
> > > >> that were (by tradition) deemed poetically acceptable whether or not
> > > they
> > > >> correlated much with anybody's pronunciation.
> > > >>
> > > >> John Donne (c1600), in his "Valediction: Of Weeping," used a similar
> > > >> rhyme: "On a round ball / A workeman that hath copies by, can lay /
> An
> > > >> Europe, Afrique, and an Asia, / And quickly make that, which was
> > > nothing,
> > > >> all."
> > > >>
> > > >> --Charlie
> > > >> ____________________________________________
> > > >>
> > > >> ---- Original message ----
> > > >> >Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 06:41:59 -0700
> > > >> >From: Jonathan Lighter
> > > >> >Subject: "I say...Lusitani-ay"
> > > >> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > >> >
> > > >> >In 1879 Matthew Arnold wrote a sonnet titled "S. S. Lusitania"
> > > >> concerning an offspring's voyage on the ship of that name (not the
> one
> > > >> torpedoed in 1915).
> > > >> >
> > > >> > At the conclusion of this very serious sonnet, Arnold rhymes
> > > >> "Lusitania" with "I say."
> > > >>
> > > >> > This is obviously not "eye-rhyme" and seems unlikely to me to be
> > > "slant
> > > >> rhyme." It reminds me instead of how character actors like Gabby
> Hayes
> > > used
> > > >> to pronounce "California" in old westerns.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Does anyone know enough about standard mid-Victorian pronunciation
> > > >> and/or poetic practice to elucidate this "rhyme" ? Did Arnold have
> > som=
> > e
> > > >> in-between diphthong in both words ?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > JL
> > > >>
> > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > >>
> > > >>
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> >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > > truth."
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > truth=
> > ."
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
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> > >
> >
> >
> > --=20
> > - Wilson
> > -----
> > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
> > come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > -Mark Twain
> >
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> >
>
>
> --
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>
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