[Ads-l] "I say...Lusitani-ay"

Dan Goncharoff thegonch at GMAIL.COM
Tue Aug 30 16:26:50 UTC 2022 

But it was also prevalent in the early 19th Century, when Indian names were
often given a soft ending "ah" by the French, but a "ay" ending by English
speakers.
DanG


On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 12:04 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I'm likewise astonished because -ay for -a is (in my personal experience)
> long been regarded as rare, rural ,and far more frowned upon than the
> prudent use of "ain't."
>
> JL
>
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 9:43 AM Stephen Goranson <goranson at duke.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > One article [1] on the poem includes:  "It has attracted almost no
> > criticism.2 But, set in context, it seems to me more interesting than it
> > appears." But no comment on the end rhyme.
> >
> > For a different view, The Independent, Feb. 6, 1879 12/3 [2]:
> >
> > "...a thin sonnet, which ends with the astonishing line....
> > in which Lusitania rhymes with 'say' and 'day.'"
> >
> > sg
> > [1]
> >
> >
> https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/84957/3/MATTHEWARNOLDANDTHELUSITANIA%5B1%5D.pdf
> >
> > [2]
> >
> >
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Independent/hMsxAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=day+say+Lusitania+rhyme+lusitania-y&pg=RA5-PA12&printsec=frontcover
> > [
> >
> https://books.google.com/books/content?id=hMsxAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&edge=curl&imgtk=AFLRE70_WHW_eicBg8hGxfLBDMhNf9CFFRlfsnKup2-a0-0I5L8IXDit3ihVoH0hVNx404DkyPSTpVf0D2dficZeX0AFvJZPSALd_hKNjBgFr386zoBDEIA5jEhcGSYq2J02Gm6YCj1f
> > ]<
> >
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Independent/hMsxAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=day+say+Lusitania+rhyme+lusitania-y&pg=RA5-PA12&printsec=frontcover
> > >
> > The Independent<
> >
> https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Independent/hMsxAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=day+say+Lusitania+rhyme+lusitania-y&pg=RA5-PA12&printsec=frontcover
> > >
> > /
> > www.google.com
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> > Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 8:18 AM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Subject: Re: "I say...Lusitani-ay"
> >
> > Most interesting. After sixteen years I'm still amazed at Arnold's rhyme
> in
> > formal English.
> >
> > JL
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 30, 2022 at 4:51 AM Geoffrey Nathan <geoffnathan at wayne.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Those who spend much time on North American highways have
> > > probably seen trucks from the 'Ottaway Motor Express',
> > > a Canadian transit company based in Woodstock, Ontario:
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://bit.ly/3cqalop__;!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF5_MPC_biA$
> > >
> > > Geoff
> > >
> > >
> > > Geoffrey S. Nathan
> > > WSU Information Privacy Officer (Retired)
> > > Emeritus Professor, Linguistics Program
> > >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://clasprofiles.wayne.edu/profile/an6993__;!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF58KE2nyXA$
> > > geoffnathan at wayne.edu
> > >
> > > From: Wilson Gray<mailto:hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2022 12:45 AM
> > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Subject: Re: "I say...Lusitani-ay"
> > >
> > > [EXTERNAL]
> > >
> > > ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > -----------------------
> > > Sender:       American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > > Poster:       Wilson Gray <hwgray at GMAIL.COM>
> > > Subject:      Re: "I say...Lusitani-ay"
> > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > books.google.com =E2=80=BA books
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=3DZWpAAQAAMAAJ&pg=3DRA1-PA15&dq=3Dwere*m=__;Kw!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF586MDigOQ$
> > >
> > >
> >
> en+of+iow-ay&hl=3Den&newbks=3D1&newbks_redir=3D0&sa=3DX&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj6=
> > > 2u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ6AF6BAgjEAI
> > > <
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=3DZWpAAQAAMAAJ&pg=3DRA1-PA15&dq=3Dwere*m=en*of*iow-ay&hl=3Den&newbks=3D1&newbks_redir=3D0&sa=3DX&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj6=2u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ6AF6BAgjEAI__;Kysr!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF59F9hNWfA$
> > >
> > > >
> > > Adventures of the _Ojibbeway_ and _Ioway_ Indians in England, ... -
> Page
> > 15
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=3DZWpAAQAAMAAJ&pg=3DRA1-PA15&dq=3Dwere*m=__;Kw!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF586MDigOQ$
> > >
> > >
> >
> en+of+iow-ay&hl=3Den&newbks=3D1&newbks_redir=3D0&sa=3DX&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj6=
> > > 2u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ6AF6BAgjEAI
> > > <
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://books.google.com/books?id=3DZWpAAQAAMAAJ&pg=3DRA1-PA15&dq=3Dwere*m=en*of*iow-ay&hl=3Den&newbks=3D1&newbks_redir=3D0&sa=3DX&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj6=2u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ6AF6BAgjEAI__;Kysr!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF59F9hNWfA$
> > >
> > > >
> > > George Catlin
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=3D1&sa=3DX&biw=3D2560&bih=3D1222&t=__;!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF5-8jO85XQ$
> > >
> > >
> >
> bs=3Dcdr:1,cd_min:1800,cd_max:1899&tbm=3Dbks&tbm=3Dbks&q=3Dinauthor:%22Geor=
> > > ge+Catlin%22&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj62u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ9Ah6BAgjEAU
> > > <
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=3D1&sa=3DX&biw=3D2560&bih=3D1222&t=bs=3Dcdr:1,cd_min:1800,cd_max:1899&tbm=3Dbks&tbm=3Dbks&q=3Dinauthor:*22Geor=ge*Catlin*22&ved=3D2ahUKEwjK5pj62u35AhXFLFkFHX9ADdEQ9Ah6BAgjEAU__;JSsl!!OToaGQ!tfdhSRgiQ-coxP6J29cizrIYrG4W7BN5tZ3qbzPtXiEFjkx28nMUgj3XQ31bdEGH8cccy2frg9TYF5-9dPjCvg$
> > >
> > > >
> > >  =C2=B7 1852
> > >
> > > The Ojiaby are also known as the _Chippewa_ and the the IIoway_ are now
> > > better known as the _Iowa_.
> > >
> > > Amongst elderly colored people, such as the writer, the state of Iowa
> and
> > > its university is known as "Ioway."
> > > During Jim Crow, Southern states would pay to send black students to
> > > Northern state universities, rather than admit them to the local state
> > > universities. My other's sister nd several of my St. Louis friends.
> went
> > to
> > > "Ioway."
> > >
> > > On Mon, Aug 29, 2022 at 6:00 PM Jonathan Lighter <
> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> > >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > The Evening Herald (Ottawa, Kans.) (May 25, 1912), p. 1:
> > > >
> > > > Around her neck she wore a yellow ribbon,
> > > > She wore it in December and in the month of May;
> > > > And when they asked her why, oh why, she wore it,
> > > > She said 'twas for the U.C.T. that came from Ottawa.
> > > > Far away, etc.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > JL
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Jan 29, 2022 at 10:31 PM Jonathan Lighter <
> > > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com=
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > _The Jolly Tar's Garland _(n.p., n.d), p.2, dated by ECCO to
> "1780?"
> > > > Lots
> > > > > of long esses, capitalized nouns, and italics in this 8pp chapbook.
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh! the French hath broke our Peace Boys,
> > > > >       In the Lands of America,
> > > > > But Royal George of England
> > > > >       Is Governor by Sea.
> > > > >
> > > > > JL
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Oct 2, 2006 at 10:18 AM Jonathan Lighter <
> > > wuxxmupp2000 at yahoo.co=
> > > m
> > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> That could be the explanation, but in Arnold's case it comes in
> the
> > > ve=
> > > ry
> > > > >> final word of the poem. This creates, to my ear and sensibility,
> an
> > > > >> extremely bathetic fall that I'd have thought Arnold would have
> > > > eschewed.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> What I'm getting at, with the help of Gabby Hayes, is the
> > possibility
> > > > >> that "Californiay," "Lusitaniay," and "Asiay" (or something closer
> > to
> > > > >> monophtongal / e /) may once have been standard pronunciations.( /
> > E /
> > > > in
> > > > >> both "say" and "Lusitania" seems like a plausible alternative.)
> > > > >>
> > > > >> My own phonology calls for / s Ei / and Lusitani / ^ /.  Pretty
> > > bathet=
> > > ic
> > > > >> in combination.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> JL
> > > > >>
> > > > >> *Charles Doyle <cdoyle at UGA.EDU <cdoyle at UGA.EDU>>* wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ---------------------- Information from the mail header
> > > > >> -----------------------
> > > > >> Sender: American Dialect Society
> > > > >> Poster: Charles Doyle
> > > > >> Subject: Re: "I say...Lusitani-ay"
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------=
> > > ------
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Or is it poetic license? There may have existed certain sorts of
> > > "rhym=
> > > e"
> > > > >> that were (by tradition) deemed poetically acceptable whether or
> not
> > > > they
> > > > >> correlated much with anybody's pronunciation.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> John Donne (c1600), in his "Valediction: Of Weeping," used a
> similar
> > > > >> rhyme: "On a round ball / A workeman that hath copies by, can lay
> /
> > An
> > > > >> Europe, Afrique, and an Asia, / And quickly make that, which was
> > > > nothing,
> > > > >> all."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --Charlie
> > > > >> ____________________________________________
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ---- Original message ----
> > > > >> >Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 06:41:59 -0700
> > > > >> >From: Jonathan Lighter
> > > > >> >Subject: "I say...Lusitani-ay"
> > > > >> >To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> >In 1879 Matthew Arnold wrote a sonnet titled "S. S. Lusitania"
> > > > >> concerning an offspring's voyage on the ship of that name (not the
> > one
> > > > >> torpedoed in 1915).
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > At the conclusion of this very serious sonnet, Arnold rhymes
> > > > >> "Lusitania" with "I say."
> > > > >>
> > > > >> > This is obviously not "eye-rhyme" and seems unlikely to me to be
> > > > "slant
> > > > >> rhyme." It reminds me instead of how character actors like Gabby
> > Hayes
> > > > used
> > > > >> to pronounce "California" in old westerns.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Does anyone know enough about standard mid-Victorian
> pronunciation
> > > > >> and/or poetic practice to elucidate this "rhyme" ? Did Arnold have
> > > som=
> > > e
> > > > >> in-between diphthong in both words ?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > JL
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > >> The American Dialect Society -
> >
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> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> ------------------------------
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> > <
> > >
> >
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> > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > > > truth."
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > > truth=
> > > ."
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The American Dialect Society -
> >
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> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --=20
> > > - Wilson
> > > -----
> > > All say, "How hard it is that we have to die!"---a strange complaint to
> > > come from the mouths of people who have had to live.
> > > -Mark Twain
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
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> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
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> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
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> >
>
>
> --
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
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