[Ads-l] Antedating of "What's Up, Doc?"

Mon May 9 19:07:20 UTC 2022

Actually, the quote goes “Never play cards with a man called Doc. Never eat at a place called Mom’s. Never sleep with a woman whose troubles are worse than your own.”  Barry Popik has a good discussion at https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/never_eat_at_a_place_called_moms.  I suppose the implication is that “Doc” implies an unwanted level of sophistication in a card player.

“Doc” is a fairly common nickname; Wikipedia has a list of notable people nicknamed “Doc,” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doc_(nickname), and few seem to be doctors (although Doc Holliday, of course, was a dentist).  My own father was sometimes called “Doc,” although not very often, as it was a nickname he strongly disliked.  I don’t know how he came to be called that.  He was not a doctor, having only two years of college (an A.A. degree), although, to put it in context, that was well above average in that time and place.  As far as I know, he never gambled at cards.

John Baker

From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> On Behalf Of Laurence Horn
Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 2:40 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
Subject: Re: Antedating of "What's Up, Doc?"

Idle speculation: There must be a tradition (in the West?) of using "Doc"
as a default name for a bar owner/manager, given the old bromide about
never eating at an establishment named Ma's or drinking at a saloon named
Doc's. (Presumably this includes the ones named for Doc Holliday.) So I
can imagine a patron bellying up to the bar and asking the bartender
"What's up, Doc?" As I say, pretty idle even for speculation.

LH

On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 12:21 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com<mailto:wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>>
wrote:

> Well, animator Tex Avery put the words in Bugs's mouth, and he was from
> Texas, which is in the South like Virginia.
>
> He'd heard "Doc" as a generic form of masculine address in high school in
> Dallas in the '20s. (And presumably used it himself.)
>
> JL
>
> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 11:50 AM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu<mailto:laurence.horn at yale.edu>>
> wrote:
>
> > Too bad, given the citation gap, that we can't credit Captain Persinger
> as
> > being the original Doc, but it's not too plausible that we could stretch
> > the causal chain (implicit Saul Kripke shout-out) from the good Captain
> to
> > Bugs and beyond...
> >
> > LH
> >
> > On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 9:50 AM Mark Mandel <markamandel at gmail.com<mailto:markamandel at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> > > And that, I think, puts a cap on the whole question. Nice research,
> all!
> > >
> > > MAM
> > >
> > > On Mon, May 9, 2022, 8:27 AM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com<mailto:wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > "What's up?" antedates 1850 in both Britain and America.
> > > >
> > > > Just sayin'.
> > > >
> > > > JL
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> on behalf
> of
> > > Ben
> > > > > Zimmer <bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM<mailto:bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM>>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 2:56 PM
> > > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>>
> > > > > Subject: Re: Antedating of "What's Up, Doc?"
> > > > >
> > > > > "Doc" indeed was a known nickname for Capt. Persinger, as noted in
> > this
> > > > > item from the Staunton (Va.) Spectator from Dec. 1872.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newspapers.com%2Fclip%2F2218331%2F1872-dec-george-persinger-also%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7Cf4682525e20447ac6a1a08da312483ae%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C637876330305957786%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=o0ULgFsT4VcoyPElw%2BW2OzRmVVu%2BSfZpOaa5xF1wdrI%3D&reserved=0<https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newspapers.com%2Fclip%2F2218331%2F1872-dec-george-persinger-also%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7Cf4682525e20447ac6a1a08da312483ae%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C637876330305957786%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=o0ULgFsT4VcoyPElw%2BW2OzRmVVu%2BSfZpOaa5xF1wdrI%3D&reserved=0>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 10:45 AM Shapiro, Fred <
> > > fred.shapiro at yale.edu<mailto:fred.shapiro at yale.edu>
> > > > >
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > The March 2022 release of new words in the OED spotlights
> > "what's
> > > > up,
> > > > > > > > doc?," with a first use of 1935. Here is an earlier
> citation.
> > > > There
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > reason to believe that Persinger was a doctor.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1882 _Staunton_ (Va.) _Spectator_ 5 Sept. 3/1
> (Newspapers.com)
> > > The
> > > > > > > > Alleghany _Tribune_ has this paragraph: "A beautiful
> black-eyed
> > > > > > Staunton
> > > > > > > > lady's presence in Clifton Forge is surmised to be the reason
> > of
> > > > > Capt.
> > > > > > > > Persinger's absence from the Cave at this particular
> juncture.
> > At
> > > > all
> > > > > > > > events the smiles of joy that adorned his face evidenced that
> > he
> > > > was
> > > > > > > > peculiarly satisfied with himself and the rest of mankind on
> > this
> > > > > > > > particular visit. What's up, 'Doc' ?"
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > The American Dialect Society -
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
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> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
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> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
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