[Ads-l] Antedating of "What's Up, Doc?"

Mon May 9 19:11:47 UTC 2022

Oh well, I did say it was idle.  Yes, it was card-playing, not saloon
drinking.  Although I suppose the tyro card player might have asked the guy
running the card game "What's up, Doc?"  Who then becomes so incensed at
the impertinence that he takes the tyro for his last plugged nickel.

On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 3:07 PM Baker, John <JBAKER at stradley.com> wrote:

> Actually, the quote goes “Never play cards with a man called Doc. Never
> eat at a place called Mom’s. Never sleep with a woman whose troubles are
> worse than your own.”  Barry Popik has a good discussion at
> https://www.barrypopik.com/index.php/new_york_city/entry/never_eat_at_a_place_called_moms.
> I suppose the implication is that “Doc” implies an unwanted level of
> sophistication in a card player.
>
> “Doc” is a fairly common nickname; Wikipedia has a list of notable people
> nicknamed “Doc,” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doc_(nickname), and few
> seem to be doctors (although Doc Holliday, of course, was a dentist).  My
> own father was sometimes called “Doc,” although not very often, as it was a
> nickname he strongly disliked.  I don’t know how he came to be called
> that.  He was not a doctor, having only two years of college (an A.A.
> degree), although, to put it in context, that was well above average in
> that time and place.  As far as I know, he never gambled at cards.
>
>
> John Baker
>
>
> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> On Behalf Of
> Laurence Horn
> Sent: Monday, May 9, 2022 2:40 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Antedating of "What's Up, Doc?"
>
> Idle speculation: There must be a tradition (in the West?) of using "Doc"
> as a default name for a bar owner/manager, given the old bromide about
> never eating at an establishment named Ma's or drinking at a saloon named
> Doc's. (Presumably this includes the ones named for Doc Holliday.) So I
> can imagine a patron bellying up to the bar and asking the bartender
> "What's up, Doc?" As I say, pretty idle even for speculation.
>
> LH
>
> On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 12:21 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> <mailto:wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
>
> > Well, animator Tex Avery put the words in Bugs's mouth, and he was from
> > Texas, which is in the South like Virginia.
> >
> > He'd heard "Doc" as a generic form of masculine address in high school in
> > Dallas in the '20s. (And presumably used it himself.)
> >
> > JL
> >
> > On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 11:50 AM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu
> <mailto:laurence.horn at yale.edu>>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Too bad, given the citation gap, that we can't credit Captain Persinger
> > as
> > > being the original Doc, but it's not too plausible that we could
> stretch
> > > the causal chain (implicit Saul Kripke shout-out) from the good Captain
> > to
> > > Bugs and beyond...
> > >
> > > LH
> > >
> > > On Mon, May 9, 2022 at 9:50 AM Mark Mandel <markamandel at gmail.com
> <mailto:markamandel at gmail.com>>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > And that, I think, puts a cap on the whole question. Nice research,
> > all!
> > > >
> > > > MAM
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, May 9, 2022, 8:27 AM Jonathan Lighter <
> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com<mailto:wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > "What's up?" antedates 1850 in both Britain and America.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just sayin'.
> > > > >
> > > > > JL
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:
> ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>> on behalf
> > of
> > > > Ben
> > > > > > Zimmer <bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM<mailto:bgzimmer at GMAIL.COM>>
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, May 8, 2022 2:56 PM
> > > > > > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> <
> ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU<mailto:ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: Antedating of "What's Up, Doc?"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Doc" indeed was a known nickname for Capt. Persinger, as noted
> in
> > > this
> > > > > > item from the Staunton (Va.) Spectator from Dec. 1872.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newspapers.com%2Fclip%2F2218331%2F1872-dec-george-persinger-also%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7Cf4682525e20447ac6a1a08da312483ae%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C637876330305957786%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=o0ULgFsT4VcoyPElw%2BW2OzRmVVu%2BSfZpOaa5xF1wdrI%3D&reserved=0
> <
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newspapers.com%2Fclip%2F2218331%2F1872-dec-george-persinger-also%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7Cf4682525e20447ac6a1a08da312483ae%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C637876330305957786%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=o0ULgFsT4VcoyPElw%2BW2OzRmVVu%2BSfZpOaa5xF1wdrI%3D&reserved=0
> >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 10:45 AM Shapiro, Fred <
> > > > fred.shapiro at yale.edu<mailto:fred.shapiro at yale.edu>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The March 2022 release of new words in the OED spotlights
> > > "what's
> > > > > up,
> > > > > > > > > doc?," with a first use of 1935. Here is an earlier
> > citation.
> > > > > There
> > > > > > > is
> > > > > > > > no
> > > > > > > > > reason to believe that Persinger was a doctor.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1882 _Staunton_ (Va.) _Spectator_ 5 Sept. 3/1
> > (Newspapers.com)
> > > > The
> > > > > > > > > Alleghany _Tribune_ has this paragraph: "A beautiful
> > black-eyed
> > > > > > > Staunton
> > > > > > > > > lady's presence in Clifton Forge is surmised to be the
> reason
> > > of
> > > > > > Capt.
> > > > > > > > > Persinger's absence from the Cave at this particular
> > juncture.
> > > At
> > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > events the smiles of joy that adorned his face evidenced
> that
> > > he
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > > > peculiarly satisfied with himself and the rest of mankind
> on
> > > this
> > > > > > > > > particular visit. What's up, 'Doc' ?"
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > The American Dialect Society -
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
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