[Ads-l] The "Gay" Line in "Bringing Up Baby"

Mon Sep 26 18:00:56 UTC 2022

Re "gunsel / thug."

Cf. comparable development of "punk."

JL

On Sun, Sep 25, 2022 at 3:51 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
wrote:

> Wow!  These folks (tripleattackgrrl, Lysandra_Yaxley, et al.) seem to take
> their disputes to a whole nother level compared with us, or did 11 years
> ago, or maybe we've just mellowed.  Anyway, it struck me as odd that in
> those discussions of a writer slipping a line into a movie that no more
> than 1% or so of the audience would "get", nobody in the debate brought up
> "gunsel" and the question of how Dashiell Hammett was able, through a
> reference in The Maltese Falcon, to single-handedly change its meaning
> (from 'young gay male' [from Yiddish gendzel 'little goose'] to 'gunman,
> hood, thug'), as discussed in part by Michael Quinion at
> https://www.worldwidewords.org/topicalwords/tw-gun1.htm and in more detail
> by contributors to this list some twenty years ago.
>
> LH
>
> On Sun, Sep 25, 2022 at 11:16 AM Stephen Goranson <goranson at duke.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > I have not read the article by Ron Butters, but did today watch the scene
> > (on youtube).
> > The argument that Grant, his character, would not have said (ad libbed,
> > not in the shooting script, apparently) gay in the sense of homosexual
> for
> > fear for his career might be weakened by the fact that he's wearing a
> > dress. But wearing it under protest. And soon before the gay mention he
> > says, as if to distance himself from speculation, "I'm not quite myself
> > today." And his gesture when speaking gay signals to me that he, the
> > character, is aware of speaking the absurdity of his character being
> such.
> > Further, these movie actors may have been familiar with Noel Coward's use
> > in 1929, including mention of a green carnation [maybe in reference to
> the
> > book title], something Oscar Wilde sometimes wore, or if not Coward
> > specifically, other such use within acting.
> > Not proof, but maybe suggestive.
> >
> > scg
> > ________________________________
> > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> > Shapiro, Fred <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2022 11:00 AM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Subject: Re: The "Gay" Line in "Bringing Up Baby"
> >
> > After sending my previous email, I re-read Ronald Butters' fine 1998
> > article on "Cary Grant and the Emergence of Gay 'Homosexual.'"  I see
> that
> > Butters does discuss the "42nd Street" line and argues that 42nd Street
> was
> > well-known throughout the U.S. as a place where people were "carefree,
> > colorful, energetically frivolous, hedonistic, fun."  Thus, in Butters'
> > view, that line does not need to be interpreted as a reference to
> > homosexuality.
> >
> > Fred Shapiro
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> > Shapiro, Fred <fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 25, 2022 9:14 AM
> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> > Subject: The "Gay" Line in "Bringing Up Baby"
> >
> > I am thinking of writing an article about my discoveries of early uses of
> > the term "gay" meaning "homosexual."  There is one point I am puzzling
> > over, and perhaps people on this list can help me.
> >
> > Cary Grant's line (in the 1938 movie "Bringing Up Baby") about going
> "gay"
> > all of a sudden, ad-libbed for a scene in which he is asked why he is
> > wearing women's clothing, is often said to be an early, or the earliest,
> > use of "gay" to mean "homosexual."  Some commentators, including the
> > linguist Ronald Butters, have denied that this ad-lib could, as an
> > "in-group" reference, have made it into a mainstream film and been
> uttered
> > by someone Butters describes as a deeply closeted homosexual who might
> have
> > been endangering his career with the utterance.
> >
> > My puzzlement has to do with character David Huxley's second line in the
> > film dialogue:
> >
> >
> > Mrs. Random <
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.imdb.com*2Fname*2Fnm0733480*2F*3Fref_*3Dtt_ch&data=05*7C01*7Cfred.shapiro*40YALE.EDU*7C0320c746e1a64f5de82c08da9ef7d523*7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c*7C0*7C0*7C637997084516017325*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000*7C*7C*7C&sdata=*2BWqcU198Xa1L8RVMkMPc*2F5v8PoZXyhmIuTatmX5Adqs*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!OToaGQ!ooSW0g9Bvp0m2Ke6vc7YKFuz7a2C5bxs2JMZb8-_XQM78W5bE3_NSG_RGxRpJbDzrHrk0xWXI4W7O6pf-OAL-puN$
> > > : But why are you wearing *these* clothes?
> >
> > David Huxley <
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.imdb.com*2Fname*2Fnm0000026*2F*3Fref_*3Dtt_ch&data=05*7C01*7Cfred.shapiro*40YALE.EDU*7C0320c746e1a64f5de82c08da9ef7d523*7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c*7C0*7C0*7C637997084516017325*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000*7C*7C*7C&sdata=xSE*2F7WsWn77l1NYumN3q7veq29b8XNFuWXpXSj1EXOQ*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!OToaGQ!ooSW0g9Bvp0m2Ke6vc7YKFuz7a2C5bxs2JMZb8-_XQM78W5bE3_NSG_RGxRpJbDzrHrk0xWXI4W7O6pf-G-a_faa$
> > > : Because I just went *GAY* all of a sudden!
> >
> > Mrs. Random <
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.imdb.com*2Fname*2Fnm0733480*2F*3Fref_*3Dtt_ch&data=05*7C01*7Cfred.shapiro*40YALE.EDU*7C0320c746e1a64f5de82c08da9ef7d523*7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c*7C0*7C0*7C637997084516017325*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000*7C*7C*7C&sdata=*2BWqcU198Xa1L8RVMkMPc*2F5v8PoZXyhmIuTatmX5Adqs*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!OToaGQ!ooSW0g9Bvp0m2Ke6vc7YKFuz7a2C5bxs2JMZb8-_XQM78W5bE3_NSG_RGxRpJbDzrHrk0xWXI4W7O6pf-OAL-puN$
> > > : Now see here young man, stop this nonsense. What are you doing?
> >
> > David Huxley <
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https*3A*2F*2Fwww.imdb.com*2Fname*2Fnm0000026*2F*3Fref_*3Dtt_ch&data=05*7C01*7Cfred.shapiro*40YALE.EDU*7C0320c746e1a64f5de82c08da9ef7d523*7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c*7C0*7C0*7C637997084516017325*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000*7C*7C*7C&sdata=xSE*2F7WsWn77l1NYumN3q7veq29b8XNFuWXpXSj1EXOQ*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!OToaGQ!ooSW0g9Bvp0m2Ke6vc7YKFuz7a2C5bxs2JMZb8-_XQM78W5bE3_NSG_RGxRpJbDzrHrk0xWXI4W7O6pf-G-a_faa$
> > > : I'm sitting in the middle of 42nd Street waiting for a bus.
> >
> >
> > 42nd Street was a well-known locale for homosexual assignations.  I
> > understand how commentators who deny this as a usage of the modern sense
> of
> > "gay" might regard it instead as an example of an older usage of "to go
> > gay" meaning "uninhibited, wild, crazy, flamboyant."  But how do such
> > commentators deny the implications of the "42nd Street waiting for a bus"
> > line?
> >
> >
> > Fred Shapiro
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society -
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Fwww.americandialect.org*2F&data=05*7C01*7Cfred.shapiro*40YALE.EDU*7C0320c746e1a64f5de82c08da9ef7d523*7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c*7C0*7C0*7C637997084516017325*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C3000*7C*7C*7C&sdata=fqybUYOk*2FBhYPIgPSRcna*2BWrmj5m1tgf1YS*2BMp3YTjg*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!!OToaGQ!ooSW0g9Bvp0m2Ke6vc7YKFuz7a2C5bxs2JMZb8-_XQM78W5bE3_NSG_RGxRpJbDzrHrk0xWXI4W7O6pf-IS1WBzO$
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society -
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.americandialect.org__;!!OToaGQ!ooSW0g9Bvp0m2Ke6vc7YKFuz7a2C5bxs2JMZb8-_XQM78W5bE3_NSG_RGxRpJbDzrHrk0xWXI4W7O6pf-AJBTUaW$
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

-- 
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org