[Ads-l] "Old soldiers never die."

Mon Oct 16 23:18:36 UTC 2023

Great work, JL and Fred.
Here are some citations from a wider exploration of the topic.
A thematic precursor appeared within a poem in a military journal in
1829. However, the deceased soldiers in this poem were probably young
not old:

Year: March 1829
Periodical: The United Service Journal
Poem: Dirge of the Slain in Battle
Quote Page 351

[Begin excerpt]
DIRGE OF THE SLAIN IN BATTLE.
. . .
Mourn not the Brave!
They never die,
But fade from earth:
Whilst Memory
In light doth grave
Their deeds and worth.
[End excerpt]

A different more general thematic precursor appeared in a popular poem
titled "My Philosophy" by C. H. H. The poem appeared in  "The
Illuminated Magazine" in 1844. Issues of the magazine were printed as
a volume in 1845.

Year: 1845
Periodical: The Illuminated Magazine
Editor: Douglas Jerrold
Volume 2 of 4
Poem : My Philosophy by C. H. H.
Start Page 42, Quote Page 42
Published for the Proprietors, No. 2 Crane Court, London
https://books.google.com/books?id=KLYL37m978kC&q=%22they+fade%22#v=snippet&

[Begin excerpt]
MY PHILOSOPHY

BRIGHT things can never die,
E'en though they fade—
. . .
Saith my philosophy—
"Bright things can never die,
E'en though they fade."
[End excerpt]

In 1873 a newspaper in Wisconsin printed a possibly pertinent
expression that later was called an Irish blessing. This blessing was
employed by veterans as shown in the some of the citations below:

[ref] 1873 March 10, The Menasha Press, Personals, Quote Page 1,
Column 2, Menasha, Wisconsin. (Newspapers_com) [/ref]

[Begin excerpt]
John Walker is a name as familiar to the people in this latitude as
salaratus, and twice as popular. He lives at the Point, is a man of
points, and an individual we hope will never die "but fade away like a
daisy," Friend W. spent Sunday last in our city.
[End excerpt]

In 1879 a reunion of the veterans of the Ninth Pennsylvania Volunteer
Cavalry was held. A message was sent to the attendees of the reunion
by General Kilpatrick who employed the saying given in the previous
citation:

[ref] 1879 June 14, The Weekly New Era, Veteran Reunion: Tenth
Anniversary Ninth Cavalry, Quote Page 6, Column 1, Lancaster,
Pennsylvania. (Newspapers_com) [/ref]

[Begin excerpt]
Before introducing the orator of the evening, the chairman read the
following despatches from General Kilpatrick and General Jordan:

Deckertown, N.J., June 5, 1879.
Committee Ninth Pennsylvania Cavalry:
Were it within my power I would be with you in person to-day, as I am
in spirit. May you all live a hundred years and then never die, but
just fade away like a daisy.
KILPATRICK.
[End excerpt]

The 1844 poem continued to circulate for decades and appeared in a
collection of poetry in 1881.

Year: 1881
Book: Harper's Cyclopaedia of British and American Poetry
Editor: Epes Sargent
Publisher: Harper & Brothers, New York
Poem: My Philosophy
Quote Page 536

https://books.google.com/books?id=UzRxAAAAIAAJ&q=%22things+can+never%22#v=snippet&

[Begin excerpt]
MY PHILOSOPHY
ANONYMOUS (BRITISH—19TH Century).

Bright things can never die,
Even though they fade;
. . .
Saith my philosophy,
Bright things can never die,
Even though they fade.
[End excerpt]

Also in 1881 a possibly germane "Irishman's blessing" was employed
during a conference of dairymen:

Year: 1881
Title: Fifteenth Annual Report of the Northwestern Dairymen's
Association with Addresses and Discussions
Held in Janesville, Wisconsin on February 8, 9, and 10, 1881
Published by Northwestern Dairymen's Association
Speaker: W. D. Hoard
Quote Page 56
Database: HathiTrust Full View

https://hdl.handle.net/2027/wu.89042079913?urlappend=%3Bseq=58%3Bownerid=13510798896852444-62

[Begin excerpt]
In closing his diary of dairy maid experience, he expressed the
Irishman's blessing as bestowed once on Supt. Merrill, of Milwaukee,
"May ye live a thousand years, and not die then, but fade away like a
daisy."
[End excerpt]

In 1891 a newspaper in Kansas wrote about a gathering of nostalgic old
soldiers called an encampment. A match for the statement “the old
soldier will never die” occurred. The match was embedded in a
conditional statement:

[ref] 1891 May 9, The Humboldt Union, State Encampment Notes, Quote
Page 3, Column 4, Humboldt, Kansas. (Newspapers_com) [/ref]

[Begin excerpt]
The old soldier will never die if he keeps on renewing his youth twice
a year at encampments and reunions.
[End excerpt]

The notion of fading away instead of dying was applied to a vicar in a
letter dated 1891:

Year: 1900
Book: Letters of Thomas Edward Brown
Editor: Sidney T. Irwin
Volume 1, Second Edition
Publisher: Archibald Constable and Company, Westminster, London, England
Letter to: A. M. Worthington
Letter date: September 12, 1891
Quote Page 151 and 152

https://books.google.com/books?id=zF3J9hdD5ucC&q=%22but+fade%22#v=snippet&

[Begin excerpt]
The dear old vicar crooned away his most admirable sermon, of which I
heard not a word, but was conscious as of a lullaby. And so they go
on, these most blessed of the blest. Time touches them lightly; they
are so precious that I suppose they will at last not die, but fade
away into balsams like Mizraim, sweet mummy powders of finest
fragrance.
[End excerpt]

Augustus G. Weissert was the Commander-in-Chief of the Grand Army of
the Republic, a fraternal organization of veterans of the Union Army.
In 1893 Weissert employed the Irish blessing during a speech to
veterans at Ebbitt House in Washington D.C. Weissert attributed the
blessing to an anonymous Irishman:

Event: Silver Anniversary of the Department of the Potomac, Banquet in
Honor of Commander-in-Chief A. G. Weissert at the Ebbitt House in
Washington D.C.
Date: February 6, 1893
Speaker: Augustus G. Weissert
Quote Page 165
Database: HathiTrust Full View

https://hdl.handle.net/2027/uiug.30112040231232?urlappend=%3Bseq=673%3Bownerid=13510798901517548-677

[Begin excerpt]
The old man said: "Mr. Mitchell, may you live a thousand years, and
then not die, but fade away like a daisy." Comrades of this
Department, and visiting comrades, I say to you I hope you may live a
thousand years, and then not die, but fade away like a daisy.
[Applause.]
[End excerpt]

Also, in 1893 Weissert employed the Irish blessing during a speech at
an encampment of veterans in Minnesota:

Year: 1893
Title: Journal of Proceedings of the Thirteenth Annual Encampment of
the Department of Minnesota Grand Army of the Republic
Held February 22 and 23, 1893 in Market Hall, St. Paul, Minnesota
Speaker: A. G. Weissert
Quote Page 259
Database: HathiTrust Full View

https://hdl.handle.net/2027/nyp.33433068173222?urlappend=%3Bseq=803%3Bownerid=27021597769756198-819

[Begin excerpt]
But I will tell you as did the old Irishman in Milwaukee during the
lifetime of the late Alexander Mitchell.
...
The Irishman turned around to Mr. Mitchell, filled with joy and he
says, "Mr. Mitchell, may you live a thousand years and then not die
but fade away; like a daisy." (Laughter.) And that, Comrades and
friends, is what I wish you to-night--that you may live a thousand
years and then not die, but fade away; like a daisy (Laughter and
applause.)
[End excerpt]

Fred pointed to the 1908 match below containing the phrase "Old
soldiers never die". The excerpt below contains the misspelling
"appause" which appeared in the original text:

Date: February 25, 1908
Newspaper: Buchan Observer and East Aberdeenshire Advertiser
County: Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Article: Retirement of Colonel Scott, V.D., 3rd V.B. Gordon Highlanders
Quote Page 5, Column 5

[Begin excerpt - check for typos]
Sir, be pleased to accept this silver service from your late brother
officers, and may you and yours be long spared to enjoy its refreshing
beverage. Do not keep it for show, but use it, and you will thereby be
the oftener reminded of the days and friens o' langsyne—(loud and
continued appause, the company, on the call of Colonel Rennie, joining
in lustily singing the chorus "Old soldiers never die").

Colonel Rennie then handed to Colonel Scott a handsome silver coffee
service, the pot bearing the following inscription:—"Presented to
Colonel Scott, V.D., by the officers, past and present, of the 3rd
(the Buchan) Volunteer Battalion Gordon Highlanders, on his retirement
from the command of the battalion, 2nd November, 1907."
[End excerpt]

A thematic match with "such men do not die, they simply fade away"
occurred in 1913:

Year: 1913
Title: Lieutenant Joshua Hewes: A New England Pioneer, and Some of His
Descendants
Edited and Chiefly Compiled by Eben Putnam
Privately Printed
Quote Page 217

https://books.google.com/books?id=8W4-AQAAMAAJ&q=%22simply+fade#v=snippet&

[Begin excerpt]
"It needs not to be recorded that when the Master called him home, his
mortal remains were laid to rest in honor, and that every merited
tribute which good men could pay by word or pen, was willingly and
sincerely tendered, for such men do not die, they simply fade away.
[End excerpt]

In 1914 the Irish blessing was again applied to veterans during a reunion:

Year: 1914
Book: Proceedings of Thirty-Second Annual Reunion of the Society of
the 28th Regt. Wisconsin Volunteer Infantry,
Held at Wauesha, June 24, 1914
Section: Campfire
Quote Page 60
Printer: Houtkamp Printing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Database: Google Books Full View
https://books.google.com/books?id=IzWNfyxV6xcC&q=%22but+fade%22#v=snippet&

[Begin excerpt]
President Barker: That's the kind of talk I like to hear, something
about the war and the old boys, but I am beginning to think, like the
Irishman, that some of these old boys will live a hundred years and
then not die but fade away like a daisy.
[End excerpt]

Fred pointed to the "Runcorn Examiner" in the British Newspaper
Archive. This is a match on the same day:

Date: 16 January 1915
Newspaper:  Widnes Examiner
Newspaper County: Lancashire, England
Article: Escorted by H.M.A.S. Sydney
Quote Page 5, Column 6
Database: British Newspaper Archive

[Begin excerpt]
As the ship left the Torpoint landing-stage (Sydney harbour), the
reserves kept up a continual round of songs, including "Tipperary "
and "Old soldiers never die; they simply fade away"—the latter to the
tune of the well-known hymn "Kind words." These songs roused everybody
to a high pitch of enthusiasm.
[End excerpt]

Garson

On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 6:44 AM Shapiro, Fred <fred.shapiro at yale.edu> wrote:
>
> Jon Lighter is not only the master of American slang lexicography, he also is a formidable student of military language and a formidable student of historical songs.
>
> The New Yale Book of Quotations lists "old soldiers never die, they simply fade away" under the author J. Foley and dated 1916.  NYBQ notes "This song was copyrighted by Foley, but he may well not have been the author."  Foley's birth date is given as the clearly erroneous "1906."
>
> Lighter's discovery of a 1909 citation for "Old soldiers never die" is a terrific one.  It led me to search British Newspaper Archive.  I have cancelled my subscription to BNA as part of a reaction to my realizing that I was spending about $1000 a year on various paywalled newspaper databases, so the citations below come from slightly garbled non-paywalled BNA snippets:
>
> 1908 _Buchan Observer and East Aberdeenshire Advertiser_ 25 Feb. 5  Loud and continued applause, the company, on the call of Colonel Rennie, joining in lustily singing the chorus Old soldiers never die.
>
> 1915 _Runcorn Examiner_ 16 Jan. 5  The reserves kept up a continual round of songs, including Tipperary and Old soldiers never die, they simply fade away.
>
> BNA has a number of other citations from the 1908-1915 period.  It appears that there were at least three phases in the development of the song:
>
> Old soldiers never die,
> Old soldiers never die, young soldiers wish they would.
> Old soldiers never die, they simply fade away.
>
> The first and third of these are serious, the second one is satirical.
>
> Fred Shapiro
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2023 7:49 PM
> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> Subject: "Old soldiers never die."
>
> Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs: 1920.
>
> [1890 Grand Army Journal (Topeka, Kans.) (May 10) 3: My God! Will those old
> soldiers never die?]
>
> 1909 Daily Mail (Hull, Eng.) (Aug. 4, 1909) 3: One company [of the Hull
> Rifles], this year, has for its favourite song, ‘Old soldiers never die!’
>
> 1911 Manchester Evening News (Jan. 30)  7: Even his fine recitations were
> not more enjoyed than the frequent singing of the old Manchester regimental
> chorus ‘Old soldiers never die; young soldiers wish they would,’ to the
> tune of ‘Kind words can never die.’
>
> 1915 Armidale [N.S.W.] Express (Apr. 20, 1915) 7:  We [Australian soldiers
> in Egypt] sing, ‘Old soldiers never die, never die, never die; old soldiers
> never die, they fade away.’
>
> 1918 Manchester Guardian(July 8, 1918)  8:
>
>              Old sailors never die, never die, never die;
>              Old sailors never die, they simply fade away.
>
>
> 1939  Leland F. Lovette _Naval Customs Traditions and Usage_  (Annapolis:
> U.S. Naval Institute Press) 270: Old sailors never die, they just sail away.
>
>
>  1980 Daily Colonist (Victoria, B.C.) (March 2) (Vancouver Section) 9: Old
> sailors never die, they just get a little dinghy.
>
> JL
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
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