[Ads-l] Does "The buck stops here'' stop here?
Shapiro, Fred
fred.shapiro at YALE.EDU
Fri Jun 14 23:33:21 UTC 2024
Just a comment about "The Modern Pocket Hoyle" as a source in general. I think the 19th century American "Hoyle" books often kept an earlier publication date in the book when issuing later editions, so their datings may be erroneous.
Fred Shapiro
________________________________
From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2024 5:02 PM
To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Does "The buck stops here'' stop here?
Nice work, JL.
Back in 2005 Ben Zimmer posted an 1856 citation for "pass the buck" (poker)
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There was a pertinent thread in 2015. I posted a citation for "passes
the buck" in "The Modern Pocket Hoyle" (1868). This date is somewhat
late, but the citation is interesting because it explains how "the
buck" is employed. In 1868 the buck was "a knife or key".
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In 2018 Stephen Goranson posted a Nov 1, 1856 citation with "pass the
buck" used during a game of brag.
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JL's citation has the same text as Stephen's but the date of Oct 27,
1856 is slightly earlier.
Garson
On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:05 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Interestingly enough, OED's primary ex. of "buck," dollar, is likewise from
> California in 1856.
>
> JL
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 1:34 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Since OED has the poker sense of "buck" from 1865, the basic question is
> > how "buck" came to be used in that way. A "buck knife" is the obvious
> > possibility, but I don't see any early exx. of it shortened to "buck."
> >
> > Early OED evidence specifies the "buck" as any small object, often a knife
> > or a pencil.
> >
> > Antedating OED:
> >
> > 1856 _Weekly Bulletin_ [S.F.] (Oct. 27) 4 (GenealogyBank): This amusing
> > operation is conducted with all the apparent earnestness attention [sic]
> > that ever as many old "brag" players bestowed on a game for "five dollars
> > ante and pass the buck."
> >
> > So the phrase was apparently known somewhat earlier than 1857.
> >
> > JL
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 12:00 PM Laurence Horn <laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Nice work, all! Is there any confirmation (or disconfirmation) from any
> >> of these sources that the origin of the reference to a buck in both “the
> >> buck stops here” and “passing the buck” is to a buck-handled knife
> >> (evidently distinct from the Buck knives named for the early 20th c.
> >> blacksmith/knife-maker Hoyt Buck) that traditionally rotated around the
> >> poker table to indicate whose turn it was to deal? Or is that an
> >> etymythology? The rotating buck-knife is the story I’ve always heard, but
> >> there’s no mention of, or even speculation about, this story in the
> >> citations.
> >>
> >> FWIW, Wikipedia (https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FBuck_passing&data=05%7C02%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7C71acb07a51c349a7725f08dc8cb5611b%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638539958804380463%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=HPqFQdbz3ocQ8GFxMdxB9pRpO1IBLL%2BLG%2BjUuXc%2BsPs%3D&reserved=0<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_passing>) uses the
> >> noncommittal evidential expression “is said to have” to describe the origin
> >> story:
> >> ============
> >> The expression is said to have originated from poker <
> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPoker&data=05%7C02%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7C71acb07a51c349a7725f08dc8cb5611b%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638539958804384667%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=qwxbMbnW7QM7ZvYabvGIE4ieTLykzYvgVIWR8EtWtbE%3D&reserved=0><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poker> in which a marker or counter (such
> >> as a knife with a buckhorn handle during the American Frontier <
> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAmerican_Frontier&data=05%7C02%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7C71acb07a51c349a7725f08dc8cb5611b%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638539958804388439%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=rRTitBTUweXSg5gLcFQHnHuSlPOgs95r5%2BxTAMUTdPI%3D&reserved=0><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Frontier> era) was used to
> >> indicate the person whose turn it was to deal <
> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPoker_dealer&data=05%7C02%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7C71acb07a51c349a7725f08dc8cb5611b%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638539958804392289%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ImuT1NhhDDn7Y9my78z6vpXZCpIv8%2Ful1ZVtAhU4xDk%3D&reserved=0><https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poker_dealer>. If the player did not wish
> >> to deal, the responsibility could be passed by the passing of the "buck <
> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FButton_&data=05%7C02%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7C71acb07a51c349a7725f08dc8cb5611b%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638539958804396103%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=hZ3ooF1kUVKA8EAJgWFlMBN4PZJkk9zh6b2BLZpdQBc%3D&reserved=0(poker)>,"<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Button_> as the counter came to
> >> be called, to the next player
> >> ============
> >>
> >> LH
> >>
> >> > On Jun 8, 2024, at 7:47 AM, Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > The cerebral hard drive must be slipping.
> >> >
> >> > JL
> >> >
> >> > On Sat, Jun 8, 2024 at 6:07 AM ADSGarson O'Toole <
> >> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Thanks JL and Fred. Congratulations to Barry Popik on his excellent
> >> >> discovery.
> >> >>
> >> >> Barry clipped the citation on September 16, 2019.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newspapers.com%2Farticle%2Flincoln-journal-star-the-buck-stops-her%2F36017495%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7C71acb07a51c349a7725f08dc8cb5611b%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638539958804400002%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Pl3r9dilVQNhGCLtV1ejokxLI1pcFDb1Z2VqE6dCnF4%3D&reserved=0<https://www.newspapers.com/article/lincoln-journal-star-the-buck-stops-her/36017495/>
> >> >>
> >> >> As mentioned by Fred, the citation appears in "The New Yale Book of
> >> >> Quotations" (2021).
> >> >>
> >> >> In addition, JL mentioned the citation previously on January 16, 2023.
> >> >>
> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flistserv.linguistlist.org%2Fpipermail%2Fads-l%2F2023-January%2F163089.html&data=05%7C02%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7C71acb07a51c349a7725f08dc8cb5611b%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638539958804403723%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=W5Oyk0cJnXFCB2GH7yHaUeA1msGwU4qpKgIJvB1Kz%2F0%3D&reserved=0<https://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/2023-January/163089.html>
> >> >>
> >> >> The Quote Investigator article has been updated, at last. Changes
> >> >> should be visible within 24 hours. Barry Popik, Jonathan Lighter, and
> >> >> Fred Shapiro are acknowledged.
> >> >> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fquoteinvestigator.com%2F2015%2F02%2F07%2Fbuck-stops%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7C71acb07a51c349a7725f08dc8cb5611b%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638539958804407444%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=dd%2FQpRHcAkpkQM6HlOL6SBKz%2FwwXtZfYgIJm6TBJYYo%3D&reserved=0<https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/02/07/buck-stops/>
> >> >>
> >> >> Garson
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, Jun 7, 2024 at 1:56 PM Shapiro, Fred <fred.shapiro at yale.edu>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> The 1929 citation is included in the New Yale Book of Quotations,
> >> which
> >> >> credits Barry Popik for discovering it.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Fred Shapiro
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> ________________________________
> >> >>> From: American Dialect Society <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU> on behalf of
> >> >> Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >> >>> Sent: Friday, June 7, 2024 1:43 PM
> >> >>> To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU <ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU>
> >> >>> Subject: Does "The buck stops here'' stop here?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Twenty years ago on another thread I wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> "I'm sticking to my story that I saw a reference to 'The Buck Stops
> >> Here'
> >> >>> on a little desk plaque in a story published during the '30s in _Our
> >> >> Army_
> >> >>> magazine."
> >> >>>
> >> >>> While not quite vindication, the following makes my statement
> >> nugatory:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> 1929 _Lincoln [Neb.] Evening Journal_ (Oct. 2) 13 (Newspapers.com):
> >> >> It's
> >> >>> about the second lieutenant in the war department whose desk was back
> >> in
> >> >>> the corner among the boxes and the barrels....Above this desk the
> >> second
> >> >>> looey had placed a card which read: "The buck stops here"...and he
> >> didn't
> >> >>> mean buck private.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> JL
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> >> >> truth."
> >> >>>
> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>> The American Dialect Society -
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> >> >> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americandialect.org%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7C71acb07a51c349a7725f08dc8cb5611b%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638539958804414771%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ekV6lXnHg4pfhSVZ2i%2FIOmNNpkn3AA%2FKb5eGSVrndgs%3D&reserved=0<http://www.americandialect.org/>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >>> The American Dialect Society - https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americandialect.org%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7C71acb07a51c349a7725f08dc8cb5611b%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638539958804418732%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=AFRH4VgNYVfwTjfqa2zzCH0r5vllVxrlsdeXzJV0bJY%3D&reserved=0<http://www.americandialect.org/>
> >> >>
> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> The American Dialect Society - https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americandialect.org%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7C71acb07a51c349a7725f08dc8cb5611b%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638539958804422976%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=lywtuLy5KUw0xr0VtZ49xgrBua4kt4itQ7KpH%2FzJ%2BXg%3D&reserved=0<http://www.americandialect.org/>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> >> truth."
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> > The American Dialect Society - https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americandialect.org%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7C71acb07a51c349a7725f08dc8cb5611b%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638539958804426973%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=9oTYtmo2rNy%2FEtDjjDsa64hNVQFnd3Y2fk%2Bb3zpC4fk%3D&reserved=0<http://www.americandialect.org/>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The American Dialect Society - https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americandialect.org%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7C71acb07a51c349a7725f08dc8cb5611b%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638539958804430977%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=e0uCHg%2FAFHMSuJ14HrnRXpj4nKEo3eRjdtGv8nObMNk%3D&reserved=0<http://www.americandialect.org/>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
> >
>
>
> --
> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.americandialect.org%2F&data=05%7C02%7Cfred.shapiro%40YALE.EDU%7C71acb07a51c349a7725f08dc8cb5611b%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C638539958804434859%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C40000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=B0ECTkpPltVrA%2F0%2F1gKNTPjvzCshWgoOUEPVP2wqqJM%3D&reserved=0<http://www.americandialect.org/>
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