[Ads-l] When You Are Up To Your Ass in Alligators

[ADSGarson O'Toole]

The OED claims an earlier citation for the full expression which I am
now trying to verify.

[Begin OED citation]
1970
When you are up to your neck in alligators, it is difficult to remind
yourself that your initial objective was to drain the swamp.
Atchison (Kansas) Globe 9 March 7/5
[End OED citation]

Garson

On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 5:15 PM ADSGarson O'Toole
<adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The OED has a pertinent entry
>
> [Begin excerpt]
> alligator noun 2
> Phrases
> slang (chiefly U.S.). up to one's ass (also ears, armpits, etc.) in
> alligators: in a difficult, dangerous, or chaotic situation; beset by
> problems or demands.
> [End excerpt]
>
> The first OED citation is from 1964, so JL's November 3, 1956 citation
> antedates the OED.
> Garson
>
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 5:00 PM ADSGarson O'Toole
> <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for your feedback, JL.
> >
> > The QI article mentions your excellent entry in the Random House
> > Historical Dictionary of American Slang for: up to one’s ass [or ears]
> > in alligators
> >
> > I included your 1877 citation for a non-metaphorical instance of "up
> > to your neck in alligators". I also included a 1944 instance of the
> > joke about alligator eggs with the punchline "up to your neck in
> > alligators".
> >
> > The QI article also has a 1957 citation for the figurative use of the
> > phrase "up to his ears in alligators". Thanks for finding a 1956
> > instance of the figurative use.
> > https://quoteinvestigator.com/2025/04/16/alligator-drain/
> >
> > Garson
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 4:33 PM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >  The joke about being "up to your neck in alligators" if the male gator
> > > didn't eat most of the eggs dates back to at least 1944. Hence,
> > >
> > > 1956_Wichita Falls [Tex.] Record News_ (Nov. 3) 1: You know you are, as the
> > > wags say, "up to your neck in alligators."
> > >
> > > 1958 Shepherd Mead _The Admen_ (N.Y.: Simon & Schuster) 261:  "Crisis?" "Up
> > > to my neck in alligators."
> > >
> > > 1964 _Times_ (San Mateo, Calif.) (Sept. 18) 13: Up to your neck in
> > > alligators? Add a room!
> > >
> > > When I first heard the phrase (in the mid '70s), it was in a proverbial
> > > form: "When you're up to your ass in alligators, you don't think about
> > > draining the swamp."
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 3:21 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thanks for your testimony, James. I will add it to my electronic file
> > > > about this topic.
> > > >
> > > > The QI article contains a May 24, 1970 citation in "The Salina
> > > > Journal" of Kansas which does mention that the saying appeared on a
> > > > sign although the sign may have been homemade. The article was about
> > > > Lance Burr who was the head of Consumer Protection Division in Kansas:
> > > >
> > > > [ref] 1970 May 24, The Salina Journal, Let seller beware, Lance Burr
> > > > believes, Start Page 1, Quote Page 2, Column 3, Salina, Kansas.
> > > > (Newspapers_com) [/ref]
> > > >
> > > > [Begin excerpt]
> > > > He follows the advice of a wry statement taped to a wall in his office
> > > > – "When you are up to your ears in alligators, it is difficult to
> > > > remind yourself that your initial objective was to drain the swamp."
> > > > [End excerpt]
> > > >
> > > > I did not see any advertisements for pertinent commercial signs in
> > > > 1969 or earlier. The internet archive and the google books database do
> > > > contain trade journals which would be a natural place for such
> > > > advertisements. Of course, the earliest published evidence often
> > > > appears after a saying enters circulation especially when the saying
> > > > contains a word deemed vulgar such as "ass". Perhaps future
> > > > researchers will find earlier published evidence. Maybe the initial
> > > > phrasing was substantially different.
> > > >
> > > > Garson
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 2:40 PM James Landau
> > > > <00000c13e57d49b8-dmarc-request at listserv.uga.edu> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > When I reported to work in the Pentagon in November 1969, I found that
> > > > motto posted on numerous walls and bulletin boards.  If I remember
> > > > correctly, some of the motto began with a text that I do not remember
> > > > verbatim but which ran something like "Our mission is to produce quality
> > > > product on time without errors..."
> > > > > Also, if I remember correctly, as far back as 1969 that motto was
> > > > available on commercially printed signs, which means it was widely known by
> > > > November 1969
> > > > > James Landau
> > > > > jjjrlandau at netscape.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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