[Ads-l] When You Are Up To Your Ass in Alligators

Fri Apr 18 21:49:28 UTC 2025

The Aitchison Globe cite is from Newspaper Archive (which OED researchers
often rely on).

https://newspaperarchive.com/other-articles-clipping-mar-09-1970-5040217/

On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 5:26 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
wrote:

> The OED claims an earlier citation for the full expression which I am
> now trying to verify.
>
> [Begin OED citation]
> 1970
> When you are up to your neck in alligators, it is difficult to remind
> yourself that your initial objective was to drain the swamp.
> Atchison (Kansas) Globe 9 March 7/5
> [End OED citation]
>
> Garson
>
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 5:15 PM ADSGarson O'Toole
> <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > The OED has a pertinent entry
> >
> > [Begin excerpt]
> > alligator noun 2
> > Phrases
> > slang (chiefly U.S.). up to one's ass (also ears, armpits, etc.) in
> > alligators: in a difficult, dangerous, or chaotic situation; beset by
> > problems or demands.
> > [End excerpt]
> >
> > The first OED citation is from 1964, so JL's November 3, 1956 citation
> > antedates the OED.
> > Garson
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 5:00 PM ADSGarson O'Toole
> > <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks for your feedback, JL.
> > >
> > > The QI article mentions your excellent entry in the Random House
> > > Historical Dictionary of American Slang for: up to one’s ass [or ears]
> > > in alligators
> > >
> > > I included your 1877 citation for a non-metaphorical instance of "up
> > > to your neck in alligators". I also included a 1944 instance of the
> > > joke about alligator eggs with the punchline "up to your neck in
> > > alligators".
> > >
> > > The QI article also has a 1957 citation for the figurative use of the
> > > phrase "up to his ears in alligators". Thanks for finding a 1956
> > > instance of the figurative use.
> > > https://quoteinvestigator.com/2025/04/16/alligator-drain/
> > >
> > > Garson
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 4:33 PM Jonathan Lighter <
> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >  The joke about being "up to your neck in alligators" if the male
> gator
> > > > didn't eat most of the eggs dates back to at least 1944. Hence,
> > > >
> > > > 1956_Wichita Falls [Tex.] Record News_ (Nov. 3) 1: You know you are,
> as the
> > > > wags say, "up to your neck in alligators."
> > > >
> > > > 1958 Shepherd Mead _The Admen_ (N.Y.: Simon & Schuster) 261:
> "Crisis?" "Up
> > > > to my neck in alligators."
> > > >
> > > > 1964 _Times_ (San Mateo, Calif.) (Sept. 18) 13: Up to your neck in
> > > > alligators? Add a room!
> > > >
> > > > When I first heard the phrase (in the mid '70s), it was in a
> proverbial
> > > > form: "When you're up to your ass in alligators, you don't think
> about
> > > > draining the swamp."
> > > >
> > > > JL
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 3:21 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <
> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks for your testimony, James. I will add it to my electronic
> file
> > > > > about this topic.
> > > > >
> > > > > The QI article contains a May 24, 1970 citation in "The Salina
> > > > > Journal" of Kansas which does mention that the saying appeared on a
> > > > > sign although the sign may have been homemade. The article was
> about
> > > > > Lance Burr who was the head of Consumer Protection Division in
> Kansas:
> > > > >
> > > > > [ref] 1970 May 24, The Salina Journal, Let seller beware, Lance
> Burr
> > > > > believes, Start Page 1, Quote Page 2, Column 3, Salina, Kansas.
> > > > > (Newspapers_com) [/ref]
> > > > >
> > > > > [Begin excerpt]
> > > > > He follows the advice of a wry statement taped to a wall in his
> office
> > > > > – "When you are up to your ears in alligators, it is difficult to
> > > > > remind yourself that your initial objective was to drain the
> swamp."
> > > > > [End excerpt]
> > > > >
> > > > > I did not see any advertisements for pertinent commercial signs in
> > > > > 1969 or earlier. The internet archive and the google books
> database do
> > > > > contain trade journals which would be a natural place for such
> > > > > advertisements. Of course, the earliest published evidence often
> > > > > appears after a saying enters circulation especially when the
> saying
> > > > > contains a word deemed vulgar such as "ass". Perhaps future
> > > > > researchers will find earlier published evidence. Maybe the initial
> > > > > phrasing was substantially different.
> > > > >
> > > > > Garson
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 2:40 PM James Landau
> > > > > <00000c13e57d49b8-dmarc-request at listserv.uga.edu> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > When I reported to work in the Pentagon in November 1969, I
> found that
> > > > > motto posted on numerous walls and bulletin boards.  If I remember
> > > > > correctly, some of the motto began with a text that I do not
> remember
> > > > > verbatim but which ran something like "Our mission is to produce
> quality
> > > > > product on time without errors..."
> > > > > > Also, if I remember correctly, as far back as 1969 that motto was
> > > > > available on commercially printed signs, which means it was widely
> known by
> > > > > November 1969
> > > > > > James Landau
> > > > > > jjjrlandau at netscape.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> truth."
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

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