[Ads-l] When You Are Up To Your Ass in Alligators

Fri Apr 18 21:58:30 UTC 2025

Thanks Ben. I was preparing the message below when I saw your helpful
response. This message provides a few more details.

The newspapers.com database does not have the Atchison Daily Globe on
March 9, 1970. Happily, newspaperarchive.com does have the pertinent
issue and the citation is good. The words are attributed to Bob Volk,
jr.

Date: March 9, 1970
Newspaper: Atchison Daily Globe
Newspaper Location: Atchison, Kansas
Article: Gathered on Commercial (Continuation title: Gathered)
Start Page 1, Quote Page 7, Column 5
Database: NewspaperArchive.com

[Begin excerpt]
Bob Volk, jr.: "When you are up to your neck in alligators, it is
difficult to remind yourself that your initial objective was to drain
the swamp."
[End excerpt]

Garson

On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 5:49 PM Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The Aitchison Globe cite is from Newspaper Archive (which OED researchers
> often rely on).
>
> https://newspaperarchive.com/other-articles-clipping-mar-09-1970-5040217/
>
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 5:26 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > The OED claims an earlier citation for the full expression which I am
> > now trying to verify.
> >
> > [Begin OED citation]
> > 1970
> > When you are up to your neck in alligators, it is difficult to remind
> > yourself that your initial objective was to drain the swamp.
> > Atchison (Kansas) Globe 9 March 7/5
> > [End OED citation]
> >
> > Garson
> >
> > On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 5:15 PM ADSGarson O'Toole
> > <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > The OED has a pertinent entry
> > >
> > > [Begin excerpt]
> > > alligator noun 2
> > > Phrases
> > > slang (chiefly U.S.). up to one's ass (also ears, armpits, etc.) in
> > > alligators: in a difficult, dangerous, or chaotic situation; beset by
> > > problems or demands.
> > > [End excerpt]
> > >
> > > The first OED citation is from 1964, so JL's November 3, 1956 citation
> > > antedates the OED.
> > > Garson
> > >
> > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 5:00 PM ADSGarson O'Toole
> > > <adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for your feedback, JL.
> > > >
> > > > The QI article mentions your excellent entry in the Random House
> > > > Historical Dictionary of American Slang for: up to one’s ass [or ears]
> > > > in alligators
> > > >
> > > > I included your 1877 citation for a non-metaphorical instance of "up
> > > > to your neck in alligators". I also included a 1944 instance of the
> > > > joke about alligator eggs with the punchline "up to your neck in
> > > > alligators".
> > > >
> > > > The QI article also has a 1957 citation for the figurative use of the
> > > > phrase "up to his ears in alligators". Thanks for finding a 1956
> > > > instance of the figurative use.
> > > > https://quoteinvestigator.com/2025/04/16/alligator-drain/
> > > >
> > > > Garson
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 4:33 PM Jonathan Lighter <
> > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >  The joke about being "up to your neck in alligators" if the male
> > gator
> > > > > didn't eat most of the eggs dates back to at least 1944. Hence,
> > > > >
> > > > > 1956_Wichita Falls [Tex.] Record News_ (Nov. 3) 1: You know you are,
> > as the
> > > > > wags say, "up to your neck in alligators."
> > > > >
> > > > > 1958 Shepherd Mead _The Admen_ (N.Y.: Simon & Schuster) 261:
> > "Crisis?" "Up
> > > > > to my neck in alligators."
> > > > >
> > > > > 1964 _Times_ (San Mateo, Calif.) (Sept. 18) 13: Up to your neck in
> > > > > alligators? Add a room!
> > > > >
> > > > > When I first heard the phrase (in the mid '70s), it was in a
> > proverbial
> > > > > form: "When you're up to your ass in alligators, you don't think
> > about
> > > > > draining the swamp."
> > > > >
> > > > > JL
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 3:21 PM ADSGarson O'Toole <
> > adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks for your testimony, James. I will add it to my electronic
> > file
> > > > > > about this topic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The QI article contains a May 24, 1970 citation in "The Salina
> > > > > > Journal" of Kansas which does mention that the saying appeared on a
> > > > > > sign although the sign may have been homemade. The article was
> > about
> > > > > > Lance Burr who was the head of Consumer Protection Division in
> > Kansas:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [ref] 1970 May 24, The Salina Journal, Let seller beware, Lance
> > Burr
> > > > > > believes, Start Page 1, Quote Page 2, Column 3, Salina, Kansas.
> > > > > > (Newspapers_com) [/ref]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Begin excerpt]
> > > > > > He follows the advice of a wry statement taped to a wall in his
> > office
> > > > > > – "When you are up to your ears in alligators, it is difficult to
> > > > > > remind yourself that your initial objective was to drain the
> > swamp."
> > > > > > [End excerpt]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I did not see any advertisements for pertinent commercial signs in
> > > > > > 1969 or earlier. The internet archive and the google books
> > database do
> > > > > > contain trade journals which would be a natural place for such
> > > > > > advertisements. Of course, the earliest published evidence often
> > > > > > appears after a saying enters circulation especially when the
> > saying
> > > > > > contains a word deemed vulgar such as "ass". Perhaps future
> > > > > > researchers will find earlier published evidence. Maybe the initial
> > > > > > phrasing was substantially different.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Garson
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Fri, Apr 18, 2025 at 2:40 PM James Landau
> > > > > > <00000c13e57d49b8-dmarc-request at listserv.uga.edu> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When I reported to work in the Pentagon in November 1969, I
> > found that
> > > > > > motto posted on numerous walls and bulletin boards.  If I remember
> > > > > > correctly, some of the motto began with a text that I do not
> > remember
> > > > > > verbatim but which ran something like "Our mission is to produce
> > quality
> > > > > > product on time without errors..."
> > > > > > > Also, if I remember correctly, as far back as 1969 that motto was
> > > > > > available on commercially printed signs, which means it was widely
> > known by
> > > > > > November 1969
> > > > > > > James Landau
> > > > > > > jjjrlandau at netscape.com
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the
> > truth."
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org

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