[Ads-l] "Alternative facts" for EOTY

Sat Oct 4 13:52:51 UTC 2025

Thanks, Ben.

JL

On Sat, Oct 4, 2025 at 9:36 AM Ben Zimmer <
00001aae0710f4b7-dmarc-request at listserv.uga.edu> wrote:

> The speaker was Alex Gibney (producer of _Orwell: 2+2=5_). Here's the exact
> quote:
>
> "And when I say 'alternative facts,' I use the phrase advisedly. That's a
> way of saying things you know to be false, but you're forced to believe are
> true."
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehJOFegDemA&t=167s
>
> On Sat, Oct 4, 2025 at 8:47 AM Jonathan Lighter <
> 00001aad181a2549-dmarc-request at listserv.uga.edu> wrote:
>
> > Back in 2018, Dictionary.com defined "alternative facts" as either 'the
> > opposite of reality (which is delusion), or the opposite of truth (which
> is
> > untruth).'
> >
> > About an hour ago I heard a more apposite def. of current use on MSNBC's
> > "The Weekend."  I couldn't write it down instantly, but I believe the
> > speaker was Raoul Peck, producer and director of _Orwell: 2 + 2 = 5_.
> > Essentially:
> >
> > "Alternative facts are things you have to believe even if you know
> they're
> > not true."
> >
> > JL
> >
> > On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 at 8:36 AM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> > > John King of CNN reports that when he insisted to an unnamed
> > > "administration official" that certain so-called "facts" presented by
> the
> > > administration were simply untrue, the official replied,
> > >
> > > "We don't care what you say. We're louder than you."
> > >
> > > Another QOTY?
> > >
> > > JL
> > >
> > > On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 4:52 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
> > wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Presumably the innovator naively interpreted "history" to mean "truth
> > >> about the past."
> > >>
> > >> JL.
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 2:56 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole <
> > >> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> JL wrote:
> > >>> > Thanks, Garson.
> > >>>
> > >>> You're welcome,
> > >>>
> > >>> > Consider that an entertaining or moralizing "fable" is not quite
> the
> > >>> same
> > >>> > as a "lie."
> > >>>
> > >>> Yes, I agree that a "fable" and a "lie" are quite distinct. I have
> > >>> grouped quotations using those words into a family because I think it
> > >>> helps to illustrate the evolution of the saying.
> > >>>
> > >>> Your suggestion that there is a connection between the following two
> > >>> statements is valuable although at this time I have not attempted to
> > >>> trace the conjectural transition from the first to the second:
> > >>>
> > >>> "History is a lie agreed upon"
> > >>> "Truth Is a Lie Agreed Upon"
> > >>>
> > >>> Garson
> > >>>
> > >>> > On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
> > >>> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> > >>> > wrote:
> > >>> >
> > >>> >> A Washington Post reporter on MSNBC, attempting strict
> objectivity,
> > >>> >> offhandedly referred to Mr. Trump's "alternative facts" as
> > >>> "mistruths."
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> JL
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 11:48 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole <
> > >>> >> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> >>
> > >>> >>> Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> > >>> >>> > The Net finds numerous recent posts asserting that leading
> > >>> self-help
> > >>> >>> guru
> > >>> >>> > Friedrich Nietzsche once wrote, "What is the truth but a lie
> > agreed
> > >>> >>> upon?"
> > >>> >>> >
> > >>> >>> > And if a bigshot said it, it must be true.
> > >>> >>> >
> > >>> >>> > GB reveals no authentic attributions to Freddy, and none before
> > >>> 2016.
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> I have examined a family of relayed sayings about historical
> truth:
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> What Is History But a Fable Agreed Upon?
> > >>> >>> http://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/07/05/fable/
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> [Begin excerpt]
> > >>> >>> Dear Quote Investigator: A popular skeptical viewpoint about
> > history
> > >>> >>> can be expressed in a few different ways:
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> 1) What is history but a fable agreed upon?
> > >>> >>> 2) History is a set of lies agreed upon.
> > >>> >>> 3) History is a set of lies that people have agreed upon.
> > >>> >>> [End excerpt]
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> Garson
> > >>> >>>
> > >>> >>> >
> > >>> >>> > A blog site confidently attributes "Truth Is a Lie Agreed Upon"
> > to
> > >>> (wait
> > >>> >>> > for it)..."Abraham Lincoln."
> > >>> >>> >
> > >>> >>> > Cf. the older and ever-popular "History is a lie agreed upon."
> > >>> >>> >
> > >>> >>> > So who, Garson, really introduced the phrase attributed to
> > >>> Nietzsche?
> > >>> >>> >
> > >>> >>> > JL
> > >>> >>> >
> > >>> >>> > On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Laurence Horn <
> > >>> laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> > >>> >>> > wrote:
> > >>> >>> >
> > >>> >>> >> > On Jan 24, 2017, at 8:14 PM, Joel Berson <berson at ATT.NET>
> > >>> wrote:
> > >>> >>> >> >
> > >>> >>> >> > A la "alt right"?
> > >>> >>> >> >
> > >>> >>> >> > Joel
> > >>> >>> >>
> > >>> >>> >> Seems so.  OED, s.v. “alt”:
> > >>> >>> >> Alternative; spec. denoting a version of some cultural
> > phenomenon
> > >>> >>> (orig.
> > >>> >>> >> and esp. music) that is regarded as outside the mainstream of
> > its
> > >>> >>> genre.
> > >>> >>> >> [citing “alt.rock” and “alt country”]
> > >>> >>> >>
> > >>> >>> >> So alt facts would be a cultural phenomenon regarded as
> outside
> > >>> the
> > >>> >>> >> mainstream of the fact genre (in being, well, not true).
> > >>> >>> >>
> > >>> >>> >> LH
> > >>> >>> >> >
> > >>> >>> >> >
> > >>> >>> >> >      From: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> > >>> >>> >> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> > >>> >>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2017 8:02 PM
> > >>> >>> >> > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "Alternative facts" for EOTY
> > >>> >>> >> >
> > >>> >>> >> > MSNBC is now using the short form "alt facts."
> > >>> >>> >> >
> > >>> >>> >> > JL
> > >>> >>> >> >
> > >>> >>> >> > On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 3:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
> > >>> >>> >> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> > >>> >>> >> > wrote:
> > >>> >>> >> >
> > >>> >>> >> >> Wrong! Wrong!
> > >>> >>> >> >>
> > >>> >>> >> >> Not a falsehood! It's an important alternate fact.
> > >>> >>> >> >>
> > >>> >>> >> >> Also note my signature line of many years standing.
> > >>> >>> >> >>
> > >>> >>> >> >> JL
> > >>> >>> >> >>
> > >>> >>> >> >> --
> > >>> >>> >> >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't
> > >>> handle the
> > >>> >>> >> truth."
> >
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org
>

-- 
"If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't handle the truth."

------------------------------------------------------------
The American Dialect Society - http://www.americandialect.org