[Ads-l] "Alternative facts" for EOTY

[Ben Zimmer]

The speaker was Alex Gibney (producer of _Orwell: 2+2=5_). Here's the exact
quote:

"And when I say 'alternative facts,' I use the phrase advisedly. That's a
way of saying things you know to be false, but you're forced to believe are
true."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehJOFegDemA&t=167s

On Sat, Oct 4, 2025 at 8:47 AM Jonathan Lighter <
00001aad181a2549-dmarc-request at listserv.uga.edu> wrote:

> Back in 2018, Dictionary.com defined "alternative facts" as either 'the
> opposite of reality (which is delusion), or the opposite of truth (which is
> untruth).'
>
> About an hour ago I heard a more apposite def. of current use on MSNBC's
> "The Weekend."  I couldn't write it down instantly, but I believe the
> speaker was Raoul Peck, producer and director of _Orwell: 2 + 2 = 5_.
> Essentially:
>
> "Alternative facts are things you have to believe even if you know they're
> not true."
>
> JL
>
> On Sun, Jan 29, 2017 at 8:36 AM Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > John King of CNN reports that when he insisted to an unnamed
> > "administration official" that certain so-called "facts" presented by the
> > administration were simply untrue, the official replied,
> >
> > "We don't care what you say. We're louder than you."
> >
> > Another QOTY?
> >
> > JL
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 4:52 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Presumably the innovator naively interpreted "history" to mean "truth
> >> about the past."
> >>
> >> JL.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 2:56 PM, ADSGarson O'Toole <
> >> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> JL wrote:
> >>> > Thanks, Garson.
> >>>
> >>> You're welcome,
> >>>
> >>> > Consider that an entertaining or moralizing "fable" is not quite the
> >>> same
> >>> > as a "lie."
> >>>
> >>> Yes, I agree that a "fable" and a "lie" are quite distinct. I have
> >>> grouped quotations using those words into a family because I think it
> >>> helps to illustrate the evolution of the saying.
> >>>
> >>> Your suggestion that there is a connection between the following two
> >>> statements is valuable although at this time I have not attempted to
> >>> trace the conjectural transition from the first to the second:
> >>>
> >>> "History is a lie agreed upon"
> >>> "Truth Is a Lie Agreed Upon"
> >>>
> >>> Garson
> >>>
> >>> > On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
> >>> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> A Washington Post reporter on MSNBC, attempting strict objectivity,
> >>> >> offhandedly referred to Mr. Trump's "alternative facts" as
> >>> "mistruths."
> >>> >>
> >>> >> JL
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 11:48 AM, ADSGarson O'Toole <
> >>> >> adsgarsonotoole at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Jonathan Lighter wrote:
> >>> >>> > The Net finds numerous recent posts asserting that leading
> >>> self-help
> >>> >>> guru
> >>> >>> > Friedrich Nietzsche once wrote, "What is the truth but a lie
> agreed
> >>> >>> upon?"
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > And if a bigshot said it, it must be true.
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > GB reveals no authentic attributions to Freddy, and none before
> >>> 2016.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I have examined a family of relayed sayings about historical truth:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> What Is History But a Fable Agreed Upon?
> >>> >>> http://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/07/05/fable/
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> [Begin excerpt]
> >>> >>> Dear Quote Investigator: A popular skeptical viewpoint about
> history
> >>> >>> can be expressed in a few different ways:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> 1) What is history but a fable agreed upon?
> >>> >>> 2) History is a set of lies agreed upon.
> >>> >>> 3) History is a set of lies that people have agreed upon.
> >>> >>> [End excerpt]
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Garson
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > A blog site confidently attributes "Truth Is a Lie Agreed Upon"
> to
> >>> (wait
> >>> >>> > for it)..."Abraham Lincoln."
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > Cf. the older and ever-popular "History is a lie agreed upon."
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > So who, Garson, really introduced the phrase attributed to
> >>> Nietzsche?
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > JL
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> > On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 8:30 PM, Laurence Horn <
> >>> laurence.horn at yale.edu>
> >>> >>> > wrote:
> >>> >>> >
> >>> >>> >> > On Jan 24, 2017, at 8:14 PM, Joel Berson <berson at ATT.NET>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >>> >> >
> >>> >>> >> > A la "alt right"?
> >>> >>> >> >
> >>> >>> >> > Joel
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >> Seems so.  OED, s.v. “alt”:
> >>> >>> >> Alternative; spec. denoting a version of some cultural
> phenomenon
> >>> >>> (orig.
> >>> >>> >> and esp. music) that is regarded as outside the mainstream of
> its
> >>> >>> genre.
> >>> >>> >> [citing “alt.rock” and “alt country”]
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >> So alt facts would be a cultural phenomenon regarded as outside
> >>> the
> >>> >>> >> mainstream of the fact genre (in being, well, not true).
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >> LH
> >>> >>> >> >
> >>> >>> >> >
> >>> >>> >> >      From: Jonathan Lighter <wuxxmupp2000 at GMAIL.COM>
> >>> >>> >> > To: ADS-L at LISTSERV.UGA.EDU
> >>> >>> >> > Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2017 8:02 PM
> >>> >>> >> > Subject: Re: [ADS-L] "Alternative facts" for EOTY
> >>> >>> >> >
> >>> >>> >> > MSNBC is now using the short form "alt facts."
> >>> >>> >> >
> >>> >>> >> > JL
> >>> >>> >> >
> >>> >>> >> > On Tue, Jan 24, 2017 at 3:06 PM, Jonathan Lighter <
> >>> >>> >> wuxxmupp2000 at gmail.com>
> >>> >>> >> > wrote:
> >>> >>> >> >
> >>> >>> >> >> Wrong! Wrong!
> >>> >>> >> >>
> >>> >>> >> >> Not a falsehood! It's an important alternate fact.
> >>> >>> >> >>
> >>> >>> >> >> Also note my signature line of many years standing.
> >>> >>> >> >>
> >>> >>> >> >> JL
> >>> >>> >> >>
> >>> >>> >> >> --
> >>> >>> >> >> "If the truth is half as bad as I think it is, you can't
> >>> handle the
> >>> >>> >> truth."
>

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