[Ads-l] Saying Origin: You Can=?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=99t_?=Live With Them, and You Can't Live Without Them

[ADSGarson O'Toole]

Back in May 2026 Jonathan Lighter initiated a thread about the saying
in the subject line.
https://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/ads-l/2026-May/169142.html

Now, I have posted a QI article which is available here:
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2026/09/14/live-with/

[Begin acknowledgement]
Great thanks to Jonathan Lighter, Stephen Goranson, Rich Lowenthal,
and Dan Goncharoff whose discussion and inquiry led QI to formulate
this question and perform this exploration. Lighter found helpful
citations from 1907 and 1908. Goranson found a wonderful attribution
to Metellus Numidicus from 1851. Lowenthal found the Latin text
ascribed to Metellus Numidicus and an English translation in the Loeb
Classical Library series.
[End acknowledgement]

Maintaining relationships is difficult. One must accommodate the needs
and desires of people who are sometimes confusing, annoying, and
ungrateful. Yet, these complex human connections produce happiness and
fulfillment.

The saying is difficult to trace because it can be expressed in
numerous ways. I have found instances referring to women, men,
neighbors, wives, wicked people, and Irish people. Below is an
overview with dates and attributions, beginning with partial matches.

177 AD Precursor: Set quoniam ita natura tradidit, ut nec cum illis
satis commode, nec sine illis ullo modo vivi possit (English
translation from Latin: We can neither live very comfortably with them
nor at all without them) (Remark about wives attributed to ancient
Roman statesman Metellus Numidicus by Roman writer Aulus Gellius)

1624 Precursor: We can neither live with them without inconvenience,
nor without them at all (Remark about wives attributed to Metellus
Numidicus by English writer Thomas Heywood)

1709 Precursor: But since we cannot live without ’em; Take ’em with
all their Faults about ’em (Remark about women by an anonymous person;
later incorrectly attributed to French poet Jean de La Fontaine)

1797 Precursor: That, let us rail at women, scorn, and flout them, We
may live with, but cannot live without them (Remark about women from
playwright Frederick Reynolds in "The Will: A Comedy")

1875 Dec 15 Precursor: He was converted, and instead of "We can't live
with them," it was, "We can't live without them" (Remark about black
customers by George S. Paine)

1882 May 09: We can't live with them and we can't live without them
(Remark about Irish people attributed to clergyman Henry Ward Beecher)

1883 Oct 22:  We can't live without them or with them (Remark about
Irish people attributed to clergyman Henry Ward Beecher)

1885 Jun 24: We cannot live happily with our wives, yet we cannot live
happily without them (Remark about wives attributed to Metullus
(Metellus Numidicus))

1887 Jun: Though in a general way he cannot live without them, yet, as
regards certain individuals, it often falls out that he cannot live
with them either (Remark about humans living in tribes by psychologist
William James)

1888: You cannot live without them, but you ought not to live with
them, nor seek their society (Remark about "the wicked" by Father John
Crasset)

1892 Mar 18: We cannot live with them and we cannot live without them
(Remark about women by Adiel Sherwood)

1905: You can't live with them, and you can't live without them
(Remark about wives in a humor book compiled by Harry L. Newton)

1920 Mar 09: We cannot live without them, but how hard we sometimes
find it to live with them! (Remark about men by columnist Della E.
Stewart)

1926 Jun 30: Neighbors! we can't live with them, and we can't live
without them (Remark about neighbors by Mary Caroline Davies)

1927: You can't live with ’em and you can't live without ’em, and what
sort of a mess is it? (Remark about sex in the novel "Oil" by Upton
Sinclair)

1930 Mar 02: You can't live with them, and you can't live without
them! (Remark about men by Peggy Hopkins Joyce)

Feedback welcome
Garson O'Toole

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