[An-lang] Proto-Dialect chains

Tue Jul 15 15:21:09 UTC 2003

The impression I have is that thre are two different things involved.
The first is the the hypothesis of a prolanguage and the second is the
membership in terms of languages and dialects in the subgroup emanating
from that language. The protlanguage is in any case a dialect chain. No
two speakers of the same language have identical idiolects (speech-
types). A dialect is a collection of idiolects that share the same
trait or collection of traits. A language is a collection of dialects
(or idiolects)held together by a chain of peirs of mutually
intelligible idiolects. A dialect-chain is a grouping of dialects that
constitute a language. As a language your 'Ancestral..' is a
protolanguage with a dialect membership that we can vaguely, if at all,
see by way of reconstruction, not by imposing a shape to it, except as
the procedures of reconstruction imply them. The kind of dialect chain
that constituted the protolanguage is hard to infer from the data
available without very detailed comparisons along the lines that you
are engaged in and I hope you will continue to pursus. But as you can
see, I see little point to trying to specify the ty[pe of membership of
a protolanguage in its nomenclature. Ths is better handled in a list
with indications of the interrelation of the members in a family tree
that allows for multiple simultaneous branchings that indicate that we
are unable to distinguish the order of the branchings because the
necessary data are lacking and in many cases will never be accessible.
I hope you will not take offense with my dealing with what I think of
as the fubdamentals of comparative work, but i do believe that your
problem as you presented it was best dealt with from a review of those
fundamentals. Cordially and with best wishes for continued discussions.
ID.
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Andrew Pawley and I have been having a little private e-discussion, but felt
it might be better to come on-list to get a wider spread of ideas.

The query relates to the nomenclature used for protolanguages and families
as opposed to proto-dialect chains and linkages. One might refer to the
Polynesian subgroup, for example, and to Proto-Polynesian, as implying a
(fairly) homogeneous and uniform single ancestral language. Forms labelled
PPn *xyz would thus represent forms which, to the best of our knowledge,
were part of that protolanguage.

My concern is with dialect-chains. There was probably a Southern Oceanic
linkage, an dialect-chain ancestral to the languages of Vanuatu and New
Caledonia. To use the same nomenclature for this proto-dialect chain - i.e.,
Proto-Southern Oceanic - tends to imply that it is of the same nature as a
more homogeneous protolanguage, which it is not.

Nevertheless, it seems to me that it would be useful to have some fairly
tight and neat way of referring to such ancestors, and not by some
long-winded expression like "Ancestral Southern Oceanic dialect-chain" or
some such, especially since one can legitimately also make reconstructions
for such a "language", with the proviso that they are less secure and were
probably more subject to internal variation than those made for
protolanguages.

My suggestion to Andy was to use lower-case p: proto-Southern Oceanic and
pSOc as opposed tpo Proto-Polynesian and PPn. I felt this would be a
sufficient indication of difference, and yet at the same time brief,
succinct, and similar enough to existing conventions.

Does anyone have any reactions to such a convention, or more importantly any
idea on what others might have used?

Thanks,

John Lynch

"The past is not dead. It is not even past." (William Faulkner)
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

John Lynch
Pro-VC and Director Pacific Languages Unit
Emalus Campus - USP
PMB 072
Port Vila. Vanuatu.
Phone: +678 22748.  Fax:  +678 22633

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<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Andrew Pawley and I hav=
e been having a little</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">private</=
FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> e-discussion, but felt it might b=
e</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">better</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FA=
CE=3D"Arial"> to come on-</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">list</F=
ONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> to get a wider spread</FONT> <FONT=
 SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">of</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> idea=
s.</FONT></P>

The query relates to th=
e nomenclature used=
 for protolanguages and families as opp=
osed to proto-dialect chains and linkages. One might refer to th=
e Polynesian subgroup, for example, and to Proto-Polynesian</FON=
T>, as implying a (fairly) homogen=
eous and uniform single ancestral language. Forms labelled PPn *=
xyz would thus represent<=
FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> forms which, to the best of <FON=
T SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">our</F=
ONT> knowledge, were part of that =
protolanguage.

My concern is with dial=
ect-chains. There was probably a Southern Oceanic linkage, an =
dialect-chain ancestral to the languages of Vanuatu and New Caledonia=
. To use the same nomenclature for this proto-dialect chain <F=
ONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">- i.=
e., Proto-Southern Oceanic<=
/FONT> - tends to imply that it is=
 of the same nature</FON=
T> as a more homogeneous <F=
ONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">protolanguage, which it is not.

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Nevertheless, it seems =
to me that it</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">would</FONT><FONT =
SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> be useful to have some fairly tight and neat=
 way of referring to such</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">ancest=
ors</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">, and not by some long-winded=
 expression like</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">"</FONT><FONT S=
IZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Ancestral Southern Oceanic dialect-chain</FONT=
><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">"</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">=
 or some</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">such</FONT><FONT SIZE=
=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">, especially</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"=
>since</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> one can legitimately also=
 make</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">reconstructions</FONT><FON=
T SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> for such a</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"A=
rial">"</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">language</FONT><FONT SIZE=
=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">"</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">, with the =
proviso that they are less secure and were probably</FONT> <FONT SIZE=
=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">more</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT> =
<FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">subject</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Ar=
ial"> to</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">internal</FONT><FONT SI=
ZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> variation than those made for</FONT> <FONT SIZ=
E=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">protolanguages</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Aria=
l">.</FONT></P>

My suggestion to=
 Andy was to use lower-case p: proto-Southern Oceanic and pSOc as =
opposed tpo Proto-Polynesian and PPn. I felt this would be a sufficie=
nt indication of difference, and=
 yet at the same time brief, suc=
cinct, and similar enou=
gh to existing conventions.

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Does anyone have any re=
actions to</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">such</FONT><FONT SIZE=
=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"> a</FONT> <FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">conventio=
n</FONT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">, or more importantly any idea =
on what others might have used?</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">Thanks,</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial">John Lynch</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D2 FACE=3D"Arial"></FONT> </P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><A NAME=3D"_MailAutoSig"></A></P>

&q=
uot;The past is not dead. It is not even past." (William Faulkne=
r)

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX=
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">John Lynch</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Pro-VC and Director Pac=
ific Languages Unit</FONT></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Emalus Campus - USP</FO=
NT></P>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">PMB 072</FONT></P>

Port Vila. Vanuatu.</FO=
NT>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT><FONT SIZE=3D1 FACE=3D"Arial">Phone: +678 22748.&nbsp=
; Fax:  +678 22633</FONT></P>
<BR>

<P ALIGN=3DLEFT></P>

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