An-lang Digest, Vol 107, Issue 5

Sat May 12 09:24:28 UTC 2012

Hi,
Re "payong".

"Yungyong" ("to cover") is a Tagalog root.

Nakayungyong ang mangga sa bakod.
"The branches of the manggo tree reaches down close to and over the fence
to provide a shade to the fence."

Coincidence?

rc

On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 4:54 PM, <an-lang-request at anu.edu.au> wrote:

> Send An-lang mailing list submissions to
>        an-lang at anu.edu.au
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        an-lang-request at anu.edu.au
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        an-lang-owner at anu.edu.au
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of An-lang digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. summary: payung, gunting, salapi, takuri (Piers Kelly)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 12 May 2012 18:54:08 +1000
> From: Piers Kelly <Piers.Kelly at anu.edu.au>
> Subject: [An-lang] summary: payung, gunting, salapi, takuri
> To: an-lang at anu.edu.au
> Message-ID:
>        <CAO-Teg3x5veeJywfjgLYqF=oL-8B9XCnS5OiXqPNyx41PJFPwQ at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hi all,
> Briefly: The consensus so far on payung is that it is probably a Malay loan
> and that the primary meaning is 'umbrella' or 'parasol', and other senses
> are metaphoric extensions of this. Many of you pointed out that *gunting*
> is
> also in Malay and that the Visayan word is probably a Malay loan. One of
> you drew attention to the correspondence with the Malay *runcing *'sharp'
> . As
> for salapi and takuri there are some interesting theories, including
> Jean-Paul Gotet "Probably Tag. s?lap "fees, salary" + Tag. -?.", and the
> existence of the root *taku* ('gourd') in languages of southeast Sulawesi.
>
> *Full responses are worth reading for their detail. I have included them
> below for the record (apologies if I missed any): *
> *
> *
> Hi Piers,
> Just on those examples it looks to me more like the basic meaning for
> payung is 'umbrella', and the other meanings are simply metaphorical
> extensions for "things that look like / function like umbrellas". The use
> of payung for halos around the heads of saints supports this, since they
> too 'protect' or at least are physically associated with the head, like
> umbrellas. Then using it for the sun/moon is another metaphorical extension
> since the sun is already metaphorically linked to the the head (cf
> Indonesian/Malay mata hari) as is the moon (cf the legend of kala rau in
> Bali, the giant's head, which has counterparts elsewhere, deriving
> ultimately from India (can send reference, not with me now).
>
> I think you would need to find examples of payung used for circular or
> ring-shaped things in general, with nothing inside the ring/circular which
> could be compared to the umbrella-head configuration, to posit
> 'ring-shaped' as prior. Similarly to support 'cap-shaped' as prior you
> would want to find examples less easily explained in terms of metaphorical
> extension than mushrooms.
>
> I wonder if payung is a loan from Malay in Philippines lgs (cf Wolff on
> Malay loans in Tagalog). Possibly an etymology p-ayung could be
> investigated (from Javanese?).
>
> best,
>
> Adrian Clynes
> ***
> Dear Piers,
>
> That is a very interesting question. the "protoform" is listed
> in Dempwolff (1938) as well as in Wolff (2010). In the latter
> it is assigned to an unidentified "subgroup". It is surprisingly
> not in Bob Blust's ACD, not even under "loanwords" or even "noise".
> Whatever the case, it seems not unlikely that it is a secondary
> lexical item in the respective languages where it occurs, and the
> dispersal of the word was to a considerable degree (if not entirely)
> the result of Malay contacts.
>
> I did a little search on Ian Proudfoot's MCP and found it to be
> ubiquitous in "Hikayat Hang Tuah" (dating after first contact with
> Portuguese), but extremely rare in "Hikayat Seri Rama" (a post-
> -islamisation adaption of a pre-Islamic translation of Valmiki's
> "Ramayana"), and not even once in "Hikayat Bayan Budiman" (a 14th
> century translation from Persian).
>
> I would surmise in a first guess, that it emerged in Malay some
> time in the 15th - 16th centuries. Will try to look around some more
> to find out, whether I could find from where the word came.
>
> In any case, the meaning of all cognates listed in Wolff (2010) is
> either 'umbrella' or 'parasol'. not 'ring' or 'circle'. The umbrella
> or parasol in Malay culture was not originally something to protect
> one from either rain or sun, but was mainly a ceremonial symbol of
> rank. royal umbrellas could be many-tiered (like the roof of a pagoda),
> so that the meaning 'circle' may derive from the ring-formed lower
> tiers. Just a guess, though.
>
> Good luck in your search.
>
> Best,
> Waruno
> ***
>
>
> The following could as easily represent borrowings into Yapese from the
> west (Philippines?), but they are fascinatingly similar:
>
> dagur ?empty coconut shell used as a container?
> salpiy ?money?
>
> Note that salpiy could be related to:
>
> salp- ?welfare? (obligatorily possessed ? e.g. salpeeg ?my welfare?
>
> Don?t know if this is of interest, but both words struck me.  As I said, my
> assumption, at least for salpiy, is that it is a borrowing.  I had always
> assumed dagur to be a native word, but if it is borrowed, it could be from
> Palauan (and I don?t know a Palauan source) ? for the matter of that,
> salpiy could be from Palau which in its turn could have borrowed from the
> west.
>
>
> jj
>
> John Thayer Jensen,
> System Administrator, Digital Services,
> The University of Auckland Business School
>
> Room 260-4136, 12 Grafton Road
>
> DDI: +64 9 923-7543
> mobile: +64 21 85-1904
> quickdial: 60001
> FAX: +64 9 373-7696
>
> http://inquietumcor.blogspot.com
>
> ***
> Hi Piers,
>
> I don't have any first-hand expertise to offer on these, but perhaps I can
> give you a couple of pointers that might lead to something interesting.
>
> Jean-Paul Potet has this to say ? propos of salap? in his recent book
> Numbers and Units in Old Tagalog:
>
> ?
> ? Probably Tag. s?lap "fees, salary" + Tag. -?. The suffix -? is evidence
> by other derivatives such ast Tag. b?lot "wrap" ? bal?t? "(leather) armour"
> (SB 1613:481:peto|N&S 1860:035). ? The derivation s?lap ? salap? may have
> neen influenced by Ar. Aa?rafii ????? [?a?rafi?] "gold coin, ducat" (Kaz.
> 1:1219).
> ? (p. 299)
>
> As for gunting, this word is also used in Malay. It has interesting
> postitional correspondences with the Malay runcing 'sharp' (as in bambu
> runcing 'sharpened bamboo lances'). It seems plausible that the two words
> might both go back to a proto-form *Runcing: certainly the /g/ is a fairly
> widespread reflex of *R and /t/ a possible reflex in some language, though
> my knowledge is too superficial to go beyond these observations. Maybe this
> will lead to something useful; if so, I would be quite happy. I have been
> puzzled over the possible etymological relationships between gunting,
> runcing, and rencong/incung (small knife used among other things to write
> South Sumatran script, also known as surat incung or rencong).
>
> Best,
>
> Chris Miller
>
> ==========================
> Christopher Miller
> 43 chemin du Grand-Moulin
> Deux-Montagnes QC
> J7R 3C3
> Canada
>
> +1 514-568-9949
>
> christophermiller at mac.com
> ==========================
> ***
> Hi Piers,
>
> I recognize "salapi" and "gunting" as Tagalog words.  I never heard of
> "takuri" but it's listed in Carl Rubino's 2002 Tagalog dictionary, so I
> suppose it is too. It reminds me of the Japanese "tokkuri" which is the
> container where you pour sake from, but I think it's just a coincidence.
>
> I thought that "gunting" was from Min Nan/Hokkien Chinese, but I can't find
> it in Gloria Chan-Yap's 1977 "Hokkien Chinese borrowings in Tagalog."  But
> one dictionary lists it "ka to" as the word in Min Nan. And that's quite a
> stretch from the Tagalog word. An online Cantonese dictionary lists the
> word ?? /ga:u33 tsin35/ which may be plausible.  Also, "gunting" is used in
> Indonesian.
>
> Salapi - I see it's used in Igorot & in Chamorro.  Arsenio Manuel's 1948
> "Chinese elements in the Tagalog language" says:
> *Salapi*. [cho( make) -pi (money) ; chai(riches, properties, money)- piek,
> silver in general, riches, fortune, money; chai(money)- pit(satin.silk),
> money in general; chai(money)-pi(any form of money), money in general.]
> *...
> *
> This is from a Google Books snippet and unfortunately I don't have access
> to the complete work right now.
>
> Trinidad H. Pardo de Tavera's 1887 "El S?nscrito en la lengua tagalog"
> (Sanskrit [words] in the Tagalog language) offers this (which I translated
> from Spanish, though I caution you it's not a perfect translation!):
>
> salapi, money: "isang salapi" a "salapi" or coin of 4 Reales fuertes  (10
> realles de vell?n)[Spanish currency], or it may be half hard, one escudo
> [Spanish currency again]. Sanskrit "r?pya," gold or silver coins: today
> "rupya" is the coin in INdia whose value varies between 2 to 2.5 pesetas,
> that's to say, half hard. It's evident to me that the Sanskrit origin of
> the word "salapi" which is composed of "sa," contraction of "satu" (one) in
> Malay, or of "isa," in Tagalog and a corruption of the word "rupya" or
> "rupia."  In this corruption, we see "R" transforming into its equivalent
> "L" and from "U" to "A," a common occurence, not only in Malayo-Polynesian
> languages, but also in Sanskrit itself: the final "A" which was lost
> probably due to the rules of Tagalog writing, which happened to the words
> "samal," "sabat," "santal," "asal," "bigal" which are in this list as being
> of Sanskrit origin. This word must have been imported into Tagalog in the
> form that it has now, or at least as "salapia," because the Tagalogs don't
> consider it a compound word, but as the simple name of a unit of currency
> in general. This appears plausible when we hear: "isang salapi," "tatlong
> salapi," which mean "one salapis, three salapis," as if "salapi" when in
> reality it's made up of a number and means "one lapi." Thus, then, "isang
> salapi," "tatlong salapi," mean "one one-lapi," "three one-lapi," with
> which I believe has been demonstrated that the word arrived in Luzon
> transformed. Whether "salapi" means a special coin and money in general is
> not a rare thing. And without going beyond Malayo-Polynesian languages, we
> can cite an example: in Javanese "hart?," as in Sanskrit "artha," which
> properly indicates riches, treasures, goods, came to later mean a kind of
> little coin of little value (1) I suppose that in Tagalog, the meaning of
> money in general was secondary and consecutive to the meaning of a special
> coin. In Ibanag, you count in the same way you do in Tagalog, taking
> "salapi" as a unit of currency, as we have shown in the "Bahagi" article:
> this way of counting money is very general in the whole archipelago.
>
> Hope this helps in some way,
>
> --Chris
>
> --
> Christopher Sundita
> BA Linguistics, University of Washington 2011
> Data Specialist, Google
>
> ***
> Hi Piers
>
> I don't have anything to say about *takuri *or *salapi *but *gunting *is
> used for 'scissors' in Indonesian (and also used to mean 'haircut' too).
>
> In some dialects of Malay, payung can be used for not just umbrella but
> also for other kinds of protection / wrapping / cover. I once had a T shirt
> bought in Ambon, eastern Indonesia with the slogan 'bulan pake payung
> tortoruga batelor' 'when the moon is wearing a payung the turtles lay
> eggs'. The picture on the T shirt had the moon with a kind of halo around
> it.
>
> Dunno if that helps but you got it anyway!
>
> cheers
> John Bowden
> ***
> Hi Piers,
>
> Here's a little data from central/southeastern Sulawesi (final consonant
> loss is the rule in these languages)  I'm not aware of cognates outside of
> this area, but maybe you can show me the way!  The original reference
> appears to have been the bottle gourd, *Lagenaria siceraria* and to
> calabashes (the dried out, ligneous shells of bottle gourds, usually put to
> some use).
>
> Pamona *taku *'gourd'
> Tolaki *taku *'gourd'
> Moronene *taku *'gourd for collecting palm toddy'
> Padoe *taku *'a kind of plant (its fruit can be made into a jar for palm
> wine)'
> Mori Bawah *taku *'gourd, calabash (especially one made into a drinking
> vessel)'  also in compounds such as:
> **        ***taku ulu* 'cranium'   [*ulu* = head]
> **        ***taku eme*  'bladder'  [*eme *= urine]
> Mori Atas  *taku benu* 'coconut shell' [*benu *= coconut]
> David Mead
>
> ***
>
> Of course *gunting* is also Malay, but I don?t know its origin.  The Malay
> dictionaries I looked at do not suggest any foreign source, so it doesn?t
> seem like a recent borrowing.****
>
> ** **
>
> Paul Kroeger
>
> ***
>
> gunting is the same in Malay - A. Ogloblin
>
>
>
>
> --
> Piers Kelly | PhD Scholar
> Linguistics, College of Asia and the Pacific
> The Australian National University
> *Join the parentsANU mailing list
> here<http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/parents>
> *
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/private/an-lang/attachments/20120512/1bd32876/attachment.html
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> An-lang mailing list
> An-lang at anu.edu.au
> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
>
>
> End of An-lang Digest, Vol 107, Issue 5
> ***************************************
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/pipermail/an-lang/attachments/20120512/3effc37b/attachment.htm>
-------------- next part --------------
_______________________________________________
An-lang mailing list
An-lang at anu.edu.au
http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang