[An-lang] An-lang Digest, Vol 137, Issue 8
David Gil
gil at eva.mpg.de
Wed Feb 18 04:36:55 UTC 2015
Daniel,
You may be right. My problem, though, is that "Proto-Malayic" isn't a
given, engraved in some tablets that we dug up somewhere; it's something
that we reconstruct (mostly) out of observed variation in contemporary
dialects. And my impression (no more than an impression, but still ...)
is that reconstructions of Proto-Malayic suffer from (at least) the
following two kinds of bias: (a) in favour of some better-known dialects
as opposed to others; and, perhaps more critically (b) in favour of the
citation forms of words, which exhibit phrase-final phonological
properties, as opposed to other forms of the same words, which may
exhibit different, phrase-medial phonological properties (where, for any
given case, it could be either the phrase-final or the phrase-medial
forms that are underlying, and either the phrase-final or the
phrase-medial forms that are more conservative).
David
On 18/02/2015 13:10, Daniel Kaufman wrote:
> David,
>
> The change PMP *q > Proto-Malay *h was actually very regular and well
> behaved. It's only the later developments of Proto-Malay *h in the
> various dialects that may appear messy. But even then, one has to
> separate changes in lexical representations from synchronic prosodic
> effects that insert glottals at phrase boundaries or delete them
> phrase internally. These synchronic alternations could be taking place
> after the historical loss of /h/ codas in those dialects, making it
> look like anything goes.
>
> -d
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 10:42 PM, <an-lang-request at anu.edu.au
> <mailto:an-lang-request at anu.edu.au>> wrote:
>
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>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: An-lang Digest, Vol 137, Issue 7 (Daniel Kaufman)
> 2. Re: etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give') (David Gil)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 21:27:33 -0500
> From: Daniel Kaufman <bahasawan at gmail.com
> <mailto:bahasawan at gmail.com>>
> Subject: Re: [An-lang] An-lang Digest, Vol 137, Issue 7
> To: an-lang at anu.edu.au <mailto:an-lang at anu.edu.au>
> Message-ID:
>
> <CAJ_Qj6wnGKmk2htz9nFsP+0-PV_8R+igWctoctMWdHHJwFRt8g at mail.gmail.com <mailto:CAJ_Qj6wnGKmk2htz9nFsP%2B0-PV_8R%2BigWctoctMWdHHJwFRt8g at mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I assumed that kasi was being cited as a colloquial form of kasih
> but I'm
> surprised that the relation between the two is not a given. The
> loss of
> Malay *h and especially word-final *h in various Malay varieties
> is common
> enough and would be even more expected in a high frequency word like
> 'give'. (In Kupang Malay it gets even further reduced to kas in
> certain
> functions.) Since kasih and kasi function identically, it must be
> safe to
> say that the latter is simply a reduced form of the former. The same
> reduction can be found in many other high frequency words (e.g.
> masih >
> masi) even in careful speech.
>
> best,
> Dan
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 17, 2015 at 8:01 PM, <an-lang-request at anu.edu.au
> <mailto:an-lang-request at anu.edu.au>> wrote:
>
> > Send An-lang mailing list submissions to
> > an-lang at anu.edu.au <mailto:an-lang at anu.edu.au>
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > an-lang-request at anu.edu.au <mailto:an-lang-request at anu.edu.au>
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > an-lang-owner at anu.edu.au <mailto:an-lang-owner at anu.edu.au>
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of An-lang digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give') (David Gil)
> > 2. Re: etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give') (Robert Blust)
> >
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 20:06:34 +0900
> > From: David Gil <gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>>
> > Subject: Re: [An-lang] etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give')
> > To: an-lang at anu.edu.au <mailto:an-lang at anu.edu.au>
> > Message-ID: <54E320BA.4040903 at eva.mpg.de
> <mailto:54E320BA.4040903 at eva.mpg.de>>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
> >
> > Bob,
> >
> > Final glottal stops within the Malayic family is a huge topic
> that I've
> > been working on intermittently for many years. But it's such a mess
> > that I would not dare to use it as a diagnostic for etymologies.
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> > On 17/02/2015 07:00, Robert Blust wrote:
> > > Hi again David,
> > >
> > > So you must be assuming that /kasi/ was borrowed back into
> Malay from a
> > > language that regularly lost *-q. If so, what is the likely
> source?
> > >
> > > For the etymology of Malay /kasih/ see PMP *qasiq and its subentry
> > *ka-qasiq
> > > in the freely accessible ACD (www.trussel2.com/ACD
> <http://www.trussel2.com/ACD>).
> > >
> > > Best,
> > >
> > > Bob Blust
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "David Gil" <gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>>
> > > To: "Austronesian languages" <an-lang at anu.edu.au
> <mailto:an-lang at anu.edu.au>>
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2015 8:24 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [An-lang] etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give')
> > >
> > >
> > >> Dear all,
> > >>
> > >> Many thanks for all of your suggestions, either to me
> personally or to
> > >> the list. In fact, there was unanimity that the source of
> Malayic
> > >> "kasi" ('give') is in a similar word for 'love' or
> 'compassion'. At
> > >> first I was not too convinced; it felt a little bit too much
> like a folk
> > >> etymology. However, some of the later comments, with data
> from a wider
> > >> range of languages such as Onya Darat (Land Dayak, thanks to
> Uri Tadmor)
> > >> and Tae' (Torajan, thanks to Daniel Kaufman), provided
> evidence that
> > >> this is most probably the correct etymology.
> > >>
> > >> Again, thanks to you all for your comments,
> > >>
> > >> David
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On 07/02/2015 16:13, David Gil wrote:
> > >>> Dear Austronesianists,
> > >>>
> > >>> I am trying to find an etymology for Malayic "kasi"
> ('give'). Can
> > >>> anybody ...
> > >>>
> > >>> (1) point me to a previously proposed etymology for "kasi"?
> > >>> (2) suggest possible cognate forms in other (non-Malayic)
> Austronesian
> > >>> languages?
> > >>> (3) offer any other relevant thoughts and suggestions?
> > >>>
> > >>> So far I have not been able to find anything. My current
> thinking is
> > >>> that "kasi" may be part of a complex of interrelated forms
> such as
> > >>> Standard Malay "ke" ('to'), "akan" (future, oblique), and "=kan"
> > >>> (causative, applicative), but this remains speculative.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>>
> > >>> David
> > >>>
> > >> --
> > >> David Gil
> > >>
> > >> Department of Linguistics
> > >> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> > >> Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
> > >>
> > >> Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
> > >> Email: gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>
> > >> Webpage: http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
> <http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/>
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> An-lang mailing list
> > >> An-lang at anu.edu.au <mailto:An-lang at anu.edu.au>
> > >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
> > >>
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > An-lang mailing list
> > > An-lang at anu.edu.au <mailto:An-lang at anu.edu.au>
> > > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > David Gil
> >
> > Department of Linguistics
> > Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> > Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
> >
> > Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
> > Email: gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>
> > Webpage: http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/ <http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2015 08:56:38 -1000
> > From: "Robert Blust" <blust at hawaii.edu <mailto:blust at hawaii.edu>>
> > Subject: Re: [An-lang] etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give')
> > To: "David Gil" <gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>>
> > Cc: an-lang at anu.edu.au <mailto:an-lang at anu.edu.au>
> > Message-ID: <02F2B978306344319602F6CBC3B719F2 at BlustPC>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> > reply-type=original
> >
> > David,
> >
> > I'm not talking about "final glottal stops". I'm talking about
> > *-q, which regularly became Malay /-h/. You'll notice that it
> appears in
> > /kasih/, where we would expect it (from *ka-qasiq --- see the
> ACD), but not
> > in /kasi/, which is why I told you when you first sent your
> inquiry out
> > that
> > I don't know of a good etymology for the latter.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Gil" <gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>>
> > To: <an-lang at anu.edu.au <mailto:an-lang at anu.edu.au>>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 1:06 AM
> > Subject: Re: [An-lang] etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give')
> >
> >
> > > Bob,
> > >
> > > Final glottal stops within the Malayic family is a huge topic
> that I've
> > > been working on intermittently for many years. But it's such a
> mess
> > > that I would not dare to use it as a diagnostic for etymologies.
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > >
> > > On 17/02/2015 07:00, Robert Blust wrote:
> > >> Hi again David,
> > >>
> > >> So you must be assuming that /kasi/ was borrowed back into
> Malay from a
> > >> language that regularly lost *-q. If so, what is the likely
> source?
> > >>
> > >> For the etymology of Malay /kasih/ see PMP *qasiq and its
> subentry
> > >> *ka-qasiq
> > >> in the freely accessible ACD (www.trussel2.com/ACD
> <http://www.trussel2.com/ACD>).
> > >>
> > >> Best,
> > >>
> > >> Bob Blust
> > >>
> > >> ----- Original Message -----
> > >> From: "David Gil" <gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>>
> > >> To: "Austronesian languages" <an-lang at anu.edu.au
> <mailto:an-lang at anu.edu.au>>
> > >> Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2015 8:24 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: [An-lang] etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give')
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Dear all,
> > >>>
> > >>> Many thanks for all of your suggestions, either to me
> personally or to
> > >>> the list. In fact, there was unanimity that the source of
> Malayic
> > >>> "kasi" ('give') is in a similar word for 'love' or
> 'compassion'. At
> > >>> first I was not too convinced; it felt a little bit too much
> like a
> > folk
> > >>> etymology. However, some of the later comments, with data
> from a wider
> > >>> range of languages such as Onya Darat (Land Dayak, thanks to Uri
> > Tadmor)
> > >>> and Tae' (Torajan, thanks to Daniel Kaufman), provided
> evidence that
> > >>> this is most probably the correct etymology.
> > >>>
> > >>> Again, thanks to you all for your comments,
> > >>>
> > >>> David
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On 07/02/2015 16:13, David Gil wrote:
> > >>>> Dear Austronesianists,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I am trying to find an etymology for Malayic "kasi"
> ('give'). Can
> > >>>> anybody ...
> > >>>>
> > >>>> (1) point me to a previously proposed etymology for "kasi"?
> > >>>> (2) suggest possible cognate forms in other (non-Malayic)
> Austronesian
> > >>>> languages?
> > >>>> (3) offer any other relevant thoughts and suggestions?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> So far I have not been able to find anything. My current
> thinking is
> > >>>> that "kasi" may be part of a complex of interrelated forms
> such as
> > >>>> Standard Malay "ke" ('to'), "akan" (future, oblique), and
> "=kan"
> > >>>> (causative, applicative), but this remains speculative.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Thanks,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> David
> > >>>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> David Gil
> > >>>
> > >>> Department of Linguistics
> > >>> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> > >>> Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
> > >>>
> > >>> Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
> > >>> Email: gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>
> > >>> Webpage: http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
> <http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/>
> > >>>
> > >>> _______________________________________________
> > >>> An-lang mailing list
> > >>> An-lang at anu.edu.au <mailto:An-lang at anu.edu.au>
> > >>> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
> > >>>
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> An-lang mailing list
> > >> An-lang at anu.edu.au <mailto:An-lang at anu.edu.au>
> > >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > > --
> > > David Gil
> > >
> > > Department of Linguistics
> > > Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> > > Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
> > >
> > > Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
> > > Email: gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>
> > > Webpage: http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
> <http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > An-lang mailing list
> > > An-lang at anu.edu.au <mailto:An-lang at anu.edu.au>
> > > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > An-lang mailing list
> > An-lang at anu.edu.au <mailto:An-lang at anu.edu.au>
> > http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
> >
> >
> > End of An-lang Digest, Vol 137, Issue 7
> > ***************************************
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2015 12:42:01 +0900
> From: David Gil <gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>>
> Subject: Re: [An-lang] etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give')
> Cc: an-lang at anu.edu.au <mailto:an-lang at anu.edu.au>
> Message-ID: <54E40A09.1030407 at eva.mpg.de
> <mailto:54E40A09.1030407 at eva.mpg.de>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> I would say that final /h/'s (< /*-q/) in Malay are just as much a
> mess
> as final glottal stops, varying substantially and often unpredictably
> from dialect to dialect, and certainly not limited to grammaticalized
> forms like causative /kasi/. In some dialects, the presence or
> absence
> of final /h/ or glottal stop is conditioned by the intonational or
> syntactic environment, with word-final /h/ or glottal stop favoured in
> phrase-final environments but disfavoured in phrase-medial
> environments. Daniel mentioned Kupang Malay: there the situation is
> even more complex, as forms such as /kasi/ may occur in phrase-medial
> position not just as /kas/ but also as /kays/, undergoing metathesis,
> presumably under substrate influence from Uab Meto.
>
> To get back to the 'give' < 'love' etymology: I would thus
> consider the
> putative distinction between forms /kasi/ and /kasih/ to be largely an
> artefact of orthographic conventions. For me, the problems with the
> etymology were semantic: I say "were", because I think that Uri and
> Daniel have provided convincing "bridging" contexts from languages in
> Kalimantan and Sulawesi.
>
> David
>
>
> On 18/02/2015 03:56, Robert Blust wrote:
> > David,
> >
> > I'm not talking about "final glottal stops". I'm talking about
> > *-q, which regularly became Malay /-h/. You'll notice that it
> appears
> > in /kasih/, where we would expect it (from *ka-qasiq --- see the
> ACD),
> > but not in /kasi/, which is why I told you when you first sent your
> > inquiry out that I don't know of a good etymology for the latter.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Gil" <gil at eva.mpg.de
> <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>>
> > To: <an-lang at anu.edu.au <mailto:an-lang at anu.edu.au>>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2015 1:06 AM
> > Subject: Re: [An-lang] etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give')
> >
> >
> >> Bob,
> >>
> >> Final glottal stops within the Malayic family is a huge topic
> that I've
> >> been working on intermittently for many years. But it's such a
> mess
> >> that I would not dare to use it as a diagnostic for etymologies.
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >> On 17/02/2015 07:00, Robert Blust wrote:
> >>> Hi again David,
> >>>
> >>> So you must be assuming that /kasi/ was borrowed back into
> Malay from a
> >>> language that regularly lost *-q. If so, what is the likely
> source?
> >>>
> >>> For the etymology of Malay /kasih/ see PMP *qasiq and its subentry
> >>> *ka-qasiq
> >>> in the freely accessible ACD (www.trussel2.com/ACD
> <http://www.trussel2.com/ACD>).
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>>
> >>> Bob Blust
> >>>
> >>> ----- Original Message -----
> >>> From: "David Gil" <gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>>
> >>> To: "Austronesian languages" <an-lang at anu.edu.au
> <mailto:an-lang at anu.edu.au>>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2015 8:24 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [An-lang] etymology of Malayic "kasi" ('give')
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Dear all,
> >>>>
> >>>> Many thanks for all of your suggestions, either to me
> personally or to
> >>>> the list. In fact, there was unanimity that the source of
> Malayic
> >>>> "kasi" ('give') is in a similar word for 'love' or
> 'compassion'. At
> >>>> first I was not too convinced; it felt a little bit too much
> like a
> >>>> folk
> >>>> etymology. However, some of the later comments, with data from a
> >>>> wider
> >>>> range of languages such as Onya Darat (Land Dayak, thanks to Uri
> >>>> Tadmor)
> >>>> and Tae' (Torajan, thanks to Daniel Kaufman), provided
> evidence that
> >>>> this is most probably the correct etymology.
> >>>>
> >>>> Again, thanks to you all for your comments,
> >>>>
> >>>> David
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 07/02/2015 16:13, David Gil wrote:
> >>>>> Dear Austronesianists,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am trying to find an etymology for Malayic "kasi"
> ('give'). Can
> >>>>> anybody ...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (1) point me to a previously proposed etymology for "kasi"?
> >>>>> (2) suggest possible cognate forms in other (non-Malayic)
> >>>>> Austronesian
> >>>>> languages?
> >>>>> (3) offer any other relevant thoughts and suggestions?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So far I have not been able to find anything. My current
> thinking is
> >>>>> that "kasi" may be part of a complex of interrelated forms
> such as
> >>>>> Standard Malay "ke" ('to'), "akan" (future, oblique), and "=kan"
> >>>>> (causative, applicative), but this remains speculative.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> David
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> David Gil
> >>>>
> >>>> Department of Linguistics
> >>>> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> >>>> Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
> >>>>
> >>>> Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
> >>>> Email: gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>
> >>>> Webpage: http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
> <http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> An-lang mailing list
> >>>> An-lang at anu.edu.au <mailto:An-lang at anu.edu.au>
> >>>> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> An-lang mailing list
> >>> An-lang at anu.edu.au <mailto:An-lang at anu.edu.au>
> >>> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >> David Gil
> >>
> >> Department of Linguistics
> >> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> >> Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
> >>
> >> Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
> >> Email: gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>
> >> Webpage: http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
> <http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> An-lang mailing list
> >> An-lang at anu.edu.au <mailto:An-lang at anu.edu.au>
> >> http://mailman.anu.edu.au/mailman/listinfo/an-lang
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> David Gil
>
> Department of Linguistics
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
> Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
>
> Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
> Email: gil at eva.mpg.de <mailto:gil at eva.mpg.de>
> Webpage: http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/ <http://www.eva.mpg.de/%7Egil/>
>
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--
David Gil
Department of Linguistics
Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology
Deutscher Platz 6, D-04103 Leipzig, Germany
Telephone: 49-341-3550321 Fax: 49-341-3550333
Email: gil at eva.mpg.de
Webpage: http://www.eva.mpg.de/~gil/
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