Arabic-L:LING:Understanding bin Laden response

[Dilworth B. Parkinson]

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Arabic-L: Tue 16 Oct 2001
Moderator: Dilworth Parkinson <dilworth_parkinson at byu.edu>
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-------------------------Directory-------------------------------------

1) Subject: muhanzar
2) Subject: video of text
3) Subject: Understanding Bin Laden Text
4) Subject: Understanding Bin Laden Text
5) Subject: Where's the Bismallah?
6) Subject: bin or ibn, and other comments

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1)
Date:  16 Oct 2001
From: Mutarjm at aol.com
Subject: mujanzar

Greetings to all / tahaiya tayyiba wa b3ad..

Re: << mujanzar >>  in the context of the cited news item = tracked combat
vehicles (not tanks) that carry soldiers ==> proper term is

              armored personnel carriers (APC)

Variant term is "infantry figthing vehicle," if the troops being transported
will stay and fire weapons from inside the APC, rather than dismount and
disperse on foot. 

APCs customarily operate with tanks for mutual protection.

Arabic media tend to use the generic term "mujanzar" (tracked objects)
instead of the more cumbersome phrase "Haamila meshaat mudarra3a."

Media refer to tanks distinctively as "dabaabaat" or "mudarra3aat" (armored
objects).

HTH. Khair, in sha' Allah.

Regards from Los Angeles,

Stephen H. Franke

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2)
Date:  16 Oct 2001
From: Albrecht Hofheinz <Albrecht_Hofheinz at web.de>
Subject: video of text

It may help not only to read, but also to listen to the Arabic text
of Bin Laden's speech. The video is at

http://www.aljazeera.net/mritems/streams/video/2001/10/7/1_59233_1_12.ASF

Regards, Albrecht Hofheinz

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3)
Date:  16 Oct 2001
From: Jackie Murgida <jmurg at star.net>
Subject: Understanding Bin Laden text

I've been listening to and reading about Islam and "Allah" in the U.S. media
and getting more and more disappointed at the way a lot of translators (and
people speaking or writing about Islam in English) miss the point that
Muslims worship God. Not translating "allaah" as "God" is very misleading,
making it unclear to the average listener/reader that this is the same God
as the one in the Old and New Testaments of the Bible.

Friends ask me questions about Arabic and Islam and are amazed [and even
argumentative] when I tell them this, as well as that the Koran has Jesus,
born of a virgin, and so on.

I was very pleased to see Waleed's point about this in the message below.
I've always wondered why Muslims, themselves, when talking about their own
religion often say "Allah," as well. It certainly does increase the
foreigness, and exoticness of Islam, and maybe emphasizes the differences
and specialness of the religion, to some believers.

The danger in this type of translation (not limited to this one word, but
exemplified by it), is to distance Us from Them, and to make it easier to
demonize Them, label them as Evildoers, bomb them, and so on. It also makes
it more difficult to make the crucial distinction between the criminal
element that exists in every society and the vast majority of people
belonging to such an "alien" religion.

I urge everyone who works with the Arabic language to be on the alert for
such gratuitous "foreignization" in translation, and to have students and
novice translators follow the "perfectly good word" rule: if English has an
existing, perfectly good word for a concept, use it. Don't use the Arabic
word for it in transliteration.

Thank you, Waleed, for an excellent posting on this subject.
Best regards,
Jackie

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4)
Date:  16 Oct 2001
From: andyf <andyf at umich.edu>
Subject: Understanding Bin Laden text

Hello all good people,
there are two problematic passages:
   In the first problematic passage there is the word mujanzaraat.  I would
like to suggest that it means bulldozer in this context.  Because tanks and
bulldozers are the two items that Isrealis are sending into Palestinian
farming villages, farms and refugees camps.  My informants here in Yemen
tell me that mujanzaraat can mean any all-terrain vehicle with metal tractor
treads as opposed to the regular kind of vehicle with synthetic rubber
tires.

As for the second problematic passage:"Calaa hadhihi al-fi'a alatii xarajat
taqarru bi-diinihaa (?bi-dainihaa) ilaa allah", the Arabic texts that I was
able to find on hte web as per Dilworth's forwarded links, do not contain
the very problematic taqiiru.
I downloaded two copies of the texts in Arabic.  They both match each other
word for word here:
Ë’¦Ý‘‹ÃË«ÝÆÆÝ»‹Ã«”ÁÂÝË‘Í”Á¨ÝË’¦Ýˆ”»Ë«Ý”ÍÊ«ÝÕ ÈÝ«”¦Ë”Ý«” ÍÝ Ê ²»Ý‰”È
«”«²”«Âݍ”ÈÝÁ­ÁÝ«”·ŠÝ«” ÍÝ‘‹Ã ÝÆÆÝ»¦ÍÊÁ«Ý‰”ÈÝ«””Áݲ»Õ«ÊÁÝÝÝË «”È¨Ý ˆ»È݈Ê
  ×ÍÝ«”¦ÊÍŠÝ·ÍݦÍÊÁ«¨Ý‘‹ÃË«Ý͋ͦËÊ݈ÊÝÍÕ«‹»Ë«Ý«”«²”«Â

The offending word "taqirr" or "tafirru" is interestingly enough not there.
I will supply my own transliteration:
waqad xarajuu . . birijaalihim waxaylihim, waqad ?allabuu 9alaynaa HattaY
d-duwalu llatii tantasibu ?ilaY l-?islaami 9alaY haadhihi l-fi?ati llatii
xarajat bidiinihaa ?ilaY llaahi subHaanihi wa ta9aalaY, ya?baY ?an tu9Tiya
d-daniiyata fii diinihaa, xarajuu yuriiduuna ?an yuHaaribuu l-?islaama.

My close translation
     And they (meaning George Bush et. al.) have brought out their men and
their horse(s), and have gathered against us even those nations that
affiliate themselves with Islam, against this group (meaning Bin Laden and
co.) which has brought out its religion to God (for protection), most high
and praiseworthy, (and which is) refusing to give baseness in its religiion.
They have gone out wanting to paractice war with Islam.

My slightly more idomatically correct for modern English translation.
     They have assembled all of their forces, even including those nations
affiliated with Islam, against us, against this group who have sought the
protection of God, most high and praiseworthy,  for their religion, refusing
to debase their religion.
They have gone out seeking to make war upon Islam.

If we insert "tafirru" into the appropriate palce, ie
     haadhihi l-fi?ati llatiy xarajat bidiinihaa
     haadhihi l-fi?ati llatiy xarajat tafirru bidiinihaa
I don't see how it shifts the meaning at all.

cheers,
Andrew Freeman

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5)
Date:  16 Oct 2001
From: Frantz <erkidego at yahoo.com>
Subject: Understanding Bin Laden text

Why this text did not start with the words of the Bismallah?

Frantz

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6)
Date:  16 Oct 2001
From: nagwa hedayet <nhedayet at yahoo.com>
Subject: Understanding Bin Laden text

Hi Dil,

Do we pronounce his name Osama ibn Laden despite the fact that we do
not write the 'alif between two names?  We say for example 'Abdallaah
ibn ' Umar but of course we write the word ibn without the
'alif..........I am not sure; what do you think?

Here is  al-djomhouriyya news paper
site: <http://www.eltahrir.net>http://www.eltahrir.net

  I think I tend to agree with the interpretation of Ms. Ola Moshref
that "modjanzaraat" means war vehicles and equipments that have heavy
iron chain like wheels and that " ta'eethu fasaadan" as an expression
usually means to devastate, spoil fiercely or destroy  blindly or
without discrimination. "yafirru ila allaah" or "yafirru bedeenihi"
are used by midieval Muslim scholars when one seeks refuge in God
leaving worldly pleasures ( for fear of the last day), or tries to
rescue one's faith and life ( fearing a tyrant's rule or an
aggression ) by leaving one's country. As far as I remember the
modern "djihaad" group used the same expression in their doctrine.

Nagwa Hedayet
Hedayet Institute for Arabic Studies
72, Rd.# 10
Maadi, Cairo, Egypt

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End of Arabic-L:  16 Oct 2001