Arabic-L:LING:Numbers with nouns

[Dilworth B. Parkinson]

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Arabic-L: Thu 07 Feb 2002
Moderator: Dilworth Parkinson <dilworth_parkinson at byu.edu>
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-------------------------Directory-------------------------------------

1) Subject: Numbers with nouns: printed references
2) Subject: Numbers with nouns
3) Subject: Numbers with nouns
4) Subject: Numbers with nouns
5) Subject: Numbers with nouns

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1)
Date:  07 Feb 2002
From: Manfred Woidich <mwoidich at hotmail.com>
Subject: Numbers with nouns

Dear all,

for those interested in "numbers with nouns" in Arabic, I should like
point out the following items: Karl Mörth, Die Kardinalzahlwörter von
eins bis zehn in den neurarabischen Dialekten. Dissertationen der
Universität Wien XVI. Vienna: WUV-Universitätsverlag 1997. XVI + 370
p. - Catherine Taine-Cheickh, Les numéraux cardinaux de 3 a 10 das
les dialectes arabes. In: Actes des premieres journées
internationales de dialectolgoie arabe de Paris. (27 au 30 janvier).
Editées par Dominique Caubet er Martine Vanhove. INALCO 1994,
Publications Langues'O - 1994, p.251 - 266. - Manfred Woidich,
Langform versus Kurzform: die Kardinalzahlwörter von 3 bis 10 im
Kairenischen. In: Jerusalem Studies in Arabic and Islam 12 (1989)
p.199-232.

maCa aTyab ittaHiyyaat
Manfred Woidich

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2)
Date:  07 Feb 2002
From: Waheed Samy <wasamy at umich.edu>
Subject: Numbers with nouns

In Egyptian the /xams kutub/ and /xams banaat/
would be /xamas kutub/ and /xamas banaat/.

In answer to the question, one does indeed reply /xamsa/.

As you say, the foreign origin might have something
to do with the following:

  xamsa gineeh
  talata litr
  sitta slindar

On the other hand consider:

'arbaca baab = 4 door
xamsa Hsaan = 5 horsepower
sabca raakib = 7 seater, (7 passengers allowed, typically to show
max. allowable capacity for taxis).

Waheed

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3)
Date:  07 Feb 2002
From: "Schub, Michael" <michael.schub at trincoll.edu>
Subject: Numbers with nouns

So why "4 door" and not "4 doors"??  "Four score and seven years ago,..."
Wouldn't "three doors" be  /tlat  'abwaab/ (short form) in Cairene Ar.??
My point is that your examples are types of "fixed/frozen expressions," i.e.
not generally productive in the dialect.

      Best wishes,              Mike Schub

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4)
Date:  07 Feb 2002
From: Waheed Samy <wasamy at umich.edu>
Subject: Numbers with nouns

[moderator's note: this message is a response to message #3; in
general, I encourage this kind of personal exchanging of messages and
then posting the conversation all at once, since it adds a certain
coherence to the dialogue.]

Yes, in Cairene Arabic "three doors" would be in
the (short form), which would be talat 'abwaab.
In contrast with, say, the Lebanese tlat, the Egyptian
equivalent is talat, because of the different phonological
characteristics of Lebanese and Egyptian.
The following is the Egyptian (short) from 3-10:
talat 'abwaab
'arbac 'abwaab    [or 'arbactibwaab] (from fusHa: 'arbacat 'abwaab)
xamas 'abwaab    [or xamastibwaab]
sitt (-i-) 'abwaab [or sittibwaab]
sabac 'abwaab    [or sabactibwaab]
taman 'abwaab    [or tamantibwaab]
tisac 'abwaab      [or tisactibwaab]
cashar 'abwaab  [or cashartibwaab]

Concerning the (long form), for example talaata, 'arbaca, ...,
At a restaurant, or sandwich place, you might ask the
waiter for:

talaata samak ma'li  [3 (orders of) fried fish]
w itneen mashwi     [and 2 (orders of) grilled (fish)]
w 'arbaca fraax         [and 4 (orders of) chicken]
wi xamsa THiina     [and 5 (orders of) tahiina]
w tamanya salata baladi [and 8 (orders of) salad]
w sitta Hilw            [and 6 deserts]

Taking the fried fish above,
talaata samak means 3 (of the) fish (kind, order, class...)
whereas
talat samakaat would mean "3 fishes".

The above is slightly different from the original
examples of
'arbaca riisha
sitta slindar
in so far as the noun (singular VS plural, or non-count):

xamsa gneeh  (singular: gineeh)
'arbaca baab  (plural: baab)
talata sukkar  (non-count: sukkar)  = [(give me) 3 bags of sugar].

So the issues involved include whether the number
is (short form) or (long form), as well as the form
of the counted noun (singular, plural, non-count).
In addition, one has to be aware of the context of when
to use the (long) form:  Restaurants, spare parts, ...,
which might be in the contexts of units, measures,
types, groups, non-count,....

I'm not sure that these would be "fixed/frozen".  Perhaps
for learners of dialects it would be more helpful to
come up with situation based rules explaining
when to employ:
(long form) number + noun (singular, or plural, or non-count)
(short form) number + noun (singular, or plural, or non-count)

Waheed

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5)
Date:  07 Feb 2002
From: Humphrey Davies <hdavies at aucegypt.edu>
Subject: Numbers with nouns

Wahid's suggestion that "arba'a riisha" in reference to a Copt is a
borrowing from auto terminology (4-blade fan) sounds very plausible; indeed
the use of the long form of the numeral seems to require an explanation of
this sort.  Can anyone date the appearance of this slur, or more
interestingly of the use of long numeral forms with sums of money/units of
measurement, etc.?

Humphrey Davies
c/o School of Humanities (223)
American University in Cairo
Cairo, Egypt

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End of Arabic-L:  07 Feb 2002