The Number Eight....

[Henry Kammler]

> 2) Some references I seen about Chinook Jargon indicate that the numbers
> 8 (stotKEn) and 9 (kwayst)/are sometimes not used in favor of either
> English or an indirect way of referncing them (e.g. "6 + 2").  Is there
> any story behind this?

Reminds me of a very common phenomenon the world over: number words in
the vernacular languages tend to be the first candidates to be
replaced by the respective terms in the colonial language. Listening
to speakers of native languages you will notice that often dates,
times and prices are said in English. Depending on the particular
language, the split seems to be somewhere around the word "five",
higher numbers tend to be replaced, lower numbers are too frequent to
become obsolete. This happens even in "big" languages like isiZulu in
South Africa. Zulu children understand the Zulu number words but all
counting and computing will be done in English.
In an area were I worked, Southern Mexico (Guerrero), Nahuatl speaking
children can count in vernacular up to "six" (!), then only in
Spanish. This is curious because in Nahuatl the numbers "six" to
"nine" are formed by adding the basic numbers one to four to a common
base /chikw-/ "*five". C.f.:
/chikwase:/ "six" (/se:/ one)
/chiko:me/ "seven" (/o:me/ two)
/chikwe:yi/ "eight" (/(y)e:yi/ three)
(though independent "five" is /ma:kwihlI/)

There seems to be no structural reason for children to know
/chikwase:/ but not /chiko:me/. Even adults only rarely know the
ancient numerals above ten (Nahuatl has a vigesimal system). They are
only preserved in fixed expressions like /a:man kashto:hlI/ "in two
weeks' time" (/kashto:hlI/ "fifteen", of which the speakers are not
aware).

OK, I hope I didn't depart too far from the focus of this list. I just
try to add some "external evidence". It is imaginable that in CJ a
two-step process was involved. First, the speakers were not sure of
the lesser used numerals above seven and expressed them by
circumscription. Second, the clumsy circumscribed numerals were
descarded and replaced with their English equivalents. The influx of
English native speakers may have added to this. But this is mere
speculation on my part.

Henry