French-Chinook list

[Mike Cleven]

Ross Clark (FOA DALSL) wrote:
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Mike Cleven [mailto:ironmtn at BIGFOOT.COM]
>>Sent: Monday, 20 May 2002 7:59 a.m.
>>To: CHINOOK at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>>Subject: Re: French-Chinook list
>>
>>
>>Ross Clark (FOA DALSL) wrote:
>>
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Mike Cleven [mailto:ironmtn at BIGFOOT.COM]
>>>>Sent: Sunday, 19 May 2002 5:46 a.m.
>>>>To: CHINOOK at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG
>>>>Subject: Re: French-Chinook list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On the subject of guns I've begun to wonder about the usual
>>>
>>assignment
>>
>>>>of kalapeen/carabine to French origin.  Part of the reason is I was
>>>>talking to some of the young Russian pizza delivery guys who
>>>>hang out at
>>>>my regular morning Starbucks yesterday, and sure enough
>>>
>>"karabin" is a
>>
>>>>Russian word; the other part of the reason is that Russian
>>>
>>rifles were
>>
>>>>already in evidence in the BC Interior at the time of Simon Fraser's
>>>>trip down the river that came to bear his name, as well as of course
>>>>along the coast.  The Boston prononciation/parallel word here is
>>>>"carbine" - I'm not sure about Kingchauch; point is the French (and
>>>>French goods) weren't involved in the coastal trade (which
>>>
>>was how the
>>
>>>>BC Interior got their rifles; from trade with the coast).  Just a
>>>>speculation overall, but we automatically assign this word to French
>>>>without considering the possible Russian option.  Of course
>>>
>>"carabine"
>>
>>>>probably came to Russian _from_ French, but that's a slightly
>>>>different
>>>>story.  Anyone have any idea as to which area/year it first
>>>>appeared in?
>>>
>>>
>>>/karabín/ appears in Russian from the mid-17th century --
>>
>>immediate source
>>
>>>may be either French or German. (Source: Vasmer,
>>
>>Etymological Dictionary)
>>
>>Thanks; I was actually meaning which area/year of the Jargon's history
>>it appeared in; from the Nootka Sound fur trade era, from Astoria/Ft
>>Vancouver, from later?
>
>
> Right. I think your etymological suggestion is an interesting one. But it is
> important to establish that the word would have been used in Russian at that
> period, and was not just something your pizza boys picked up recently.

True enough; but when I first asked them what their word for "rifle" was
they came up with something else; started with 'r' but don't know
exactly.  When I asked them if they recognized "karabin" they said, yes,
of course, but it didn't seem like it was a word they used on a regular
basis; much as most English speakers might not use "carbine", I'd think.
    Your own sourcing of this to the mid-17th C suggests that it was a
_part_ of Russian in the days of the fur trade (late 18th Century); I
guess the clincher would be if carabines/carbines were among the trade
goods distributed from Sitka etc. and in what year, etc, plus some
evidence showing that the Spanish, British etc. _didn't_ trade in
carabines/carbines, etc.

In my earlier post I'd meant to mention that AFAIK there's a significant
difference between a musket and a carbine; muzzle-length mostly, and
ease of use (carbines were developed for mounted shooters); I'd thought
maybe that it was a muzzle vs breechloading difference but apparently
not.  cf:

http://www.bbhc.org/pointsWest/PWArticle.cfm?ArticleID=57

--
Mike Cleven
http://www.cayoosh.net (Bridge River Lillooet history)
http://www.hiyu.net (Chinook Jargon phrasebook/history)