mystery "French" in Wawa

[hzenk at PDX.EDU]

Robert,

I'll go dig around and see if I can find the refs I'm vaguely  
remembering to Siletz being originally Alsean speaking (they are I  
believe from Alsea speaking linguistic informants).

One thing that kinda has me scratching my head is that I thought that  
that message from me you replied to was lost (didn't come up in my  
"sent mail" box).  That's why I sent another, shorter message under  
the same topic.  So if anyone is wondering what all that was about...  
Henry

Quoting Robert Kentta <rkentta at CTSI.NSN.US>:

> hzenk at PDX.EDU wrote:
>> Thanks Anthony and Robert for the background on Louie Fuller.  I   
>> remember looking at Frachtenberg's Siletz Tillamook vocabulary a   
>> long time ago, but didn't remember the Fuller family connection.    
>> As I recall, there was some disagreement between different sources   
>> as to whether the Siletz River/Bay region was originally or earlier  
>>  Alsean (or Yakonan) speaking, or Tillamook speaking.  I have   
>> wondered whether it might actually have been "mixed," perhaps   
>> undergoing language shift from Alsean (spoken immediately to the   
>> south on Yaquina and Alsea Bays) to Tillamook Salishan coming in   
>> (or marrying in) from the north.
>>
>> And thanks to everyone for their helpful comments on the words.  A   
>> note with Harrington's "lident" citation says that "Lf" (Louie   
>> Fuller) was not completely sure of the Jargon form.  On the other   
>> hand, the same form is given as his father's word for 'dandelion'   
>> in Tillamook, and if it was valid as Tillamook, it is a fair   
>> surmise that it would have been valid as Jargon.  Michel   
>> Laframboise is someone a word like that could have come from!  He   
>> was perhaps the HBC's best known early-19th c. interpreter in the   
>> lower Columbia district.
>>
>> What I'm still wondering is how far back some of these words go.    
>> Wawa was by no means dead on the Oregon coast in 1942, so they   
>> could conceivably have been relatively recently adopted.  Or do   
>> they go back to the early 1800s, along with most of the French   
>> contribution to Wawa?  Henry
>>
>> Quoting Anthony Grant <Granta at EDGEHILL.AC.UK>:
>>
>>> Folks:
>>>
>>> Just to add a bit to Robert Kentta's posting:
>>>
>>> Susan Fuller provides Leo Frahctenberg with a short vocabulary of   
>>>  Siletz Salishan (a variety of Tillamook).  Daisy Collins helped   
>>> out  her brother Miller Collins (who was a preacher in some   
>>> Pentecostal  church, I seem to recall) when Swadesh and Melton   
>>> interviewed Miller  Collins and got Tututni data for the Penutian   
>>> Vocabulary Survey.  (I  know Tututni isn't Penutian, nor are   
>>> Galice and Northern Paiute,  which they also recorded - but   
>>> I'mglad they took the time.)
>>>
>>> Anthony
>>>
>>>>>> Robert Kentta <rkentta at CTSI.NSN.US> 06/13/08 5:19 AM >>>
>>> hzenk at PDX.EDU wrote:
>>>> I was wondering whether anyone out on the list has a clue about the
>>>> following three words, all collected as Wawa by John P. Harrington on
>>>> the lower Columbia and Oregon Coast in 1942 (these are from the
>>>> Harrington Papers, mf rolls 17 and 18):
>>>>
>>>> lident 'dandelion' (given by Louis Fuller, who also spoke Salmon R
>>>> Tillamook).
>>>>
>>>> labins 'beans' (also Louis Fuller).
>>>>
>>>> lapeyl 'can (for cooking in)' (Joe Peter, a Cowlitz living at Yakima
>>>> Res).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All three words appear to have French articles, but I don't find
>>>> anything like them in my French dictionary.  Are they Canadianisms?
>>>> Local coinings?  (Since so many nouns for introduced items are from
>>>> French, there may be a tendency to adopt the French article as a sort
>>>> of noun-classifier for such words).  Henry
>>>>
>>>> To respond to the CHINOOK list, click 'REPLY ALL'.  To respond
>>>> privately to the sender of a message, click 'REPLY'.  Hayu masi!
>>>>
>>> Louie Fuller was from here at the Siletz Reservation, and was the son of
>>> John Fuller, a Salmon River Tillamook headman. There were Clatsop
>>> connections in the family (his mother?, grandmother???). There was
>>> rumored to have been french ancestry, but that may have been a mistake -
>>> or based on conjecture. Louie had a brother named
>>> Michel/Michael/Machelle - I've seen all spellings. Michel LaFramboise of
>>> HBC may have been familiar to the family in the early days. Louie
>>> married a SW Oregon Athapascan woman from Siletz (Daisy Collins-Fuller),
>>> and their children learned both Tillamook and Tututni languages - as
>>> well as CJ. Harry Fuller lived to be fairly old, and passed here 6 or 8
>>> years ago. He didn't speak any English until he went to school....said
>>> he "had a hell of a time" trying to learn English.
>>>
>>> Robert Kentta
>>> Siletz
>>>
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>>> privately to the sender of a message, click 'REPLY'.  Hayu masi!
>>>
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>>
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> Hmmm. Yes, lots to think about. Thanks Heiki.
>
> I haven't done as much looking at the issue (as I should have before
> now)....but there are many questions and sub-questions there. There is
> plenty indication that there was mixed, overlapping or joint use of
> areas, especially the main part of the Siletz Valley (where the Siletz
> Agency and later town of Siletz developed). That is, at least by
> reservation times....but there are also many possible contributing
> factors: a more severe impact to the Siletz Band of Tillamooks'
> population - than the neighboring Yaquinas - as indicated by Theodore
> Talbot's 1840's note that the shores of Siletz Bay were lined with
> canoe burials and that there were just 9 men and their families still
> residing on the Siletz River.....The fact that the Siletz Tillamook
> dialect is said to be quite divergent from the other Tillamook dialects
> raises questions about influence/intermixing from the south over time -
> of course genetically - but possibly linguistically as well, or????
> That may be a similar situation as is debated about the western Takelma
> villages having Athapascan sounding names....at least having the Ath.
> suffix "tun" = "place". the debate being whether Takelma were gradually
> replacing Athapascans, or they were being replaced to some degree. The
> Chasta Costa Dialect is also a little divergent, but supposedly as a
> result of more rapid speech and sounds collapsing - and sounding
> different as a result.
>
> Back to the Yaquina and Siletz Band people though, it may have been the
> population declines (epidemics + violence from HBC retaliations ca.
> 1832)... that led to all of the remaining or at least physically
> closest neighbors collapsing into more or less one unit (through
> marriage relations, through survival necessity, ???) by the time the
> reservation was established and other tribes moved in amongst. There is
> indication of shifting of locals on the Siletz to Salmon River and
> possibly some of those on Salmon River also moving to their Nestucca
> relatives' territory - probably temporarily - as the other tribes were
> brought in among them and violence peaked. (fighting at the D River -
> over fishery access between SW Coast Athapascans and the locals, ca
> 1856-57 and Tyee John and his sons shooting and killing a Siletz River
> man in 1857-58)... All of these things had at least temporary influence
> over people's habits, movements and associations.
>
> Robert K.
>
> To respond to the CHINOOK list, click 'REPLY ALL'.  To respond
> privately to the sender of a message, click 'REPLY'.  Hayu masi!

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