Linguist List Issue: Linguists demonstrate Siberian-North American link

Thu Aug 25 17:41:26 UTC 2011

Caro Pedro,

Muito obrigado por compartilhar na lista suas reflexões sobre este tema.
Acho que é sempre proveitoso discutir as questões metodológicas inerentes ao
esforço de se determinar parentesco genético de longo alcance.  Também li
recentemente uma resenha (a sair, me parece, no IJAL) que Lyle Campbell fez
do volume em questão (Kari & Potter 2010), em que ele discute vários
problemas com as evidências apresentadas por Vajda:

http://j.mp/NaDene

É leitura útil pra todos nós que lidamos com o estudo de parentesco
genético. Cada um dos tipos de problemas que ele aponta pode ser facilmente
encontrado no nosso continente, mesmo no caso de trabalhos sobre relações
menos questionáveis (como aquelas que dizem respeito ao tronco Macro-Jê): o
uso desavisado de empréstimos, aproximações semânticas duvidosas,
onomatopéias, etc.

Abraços,

Eduardo
On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Pedro Viegas Barros <
peviegas2003 at yahoo.com.br> wrote:

> **
>
>
>  Estimado Eduardo,
>
> Con algo de demora (¡tres años!) me decido ahora a hacer públicas algunas
> reflexiones que ya antes había compartido con Ud. -de manera privada- sobre
> este tema.
> Un abrazo,
>
> Pedro
>
>
> En principio, creo que Vajda ha construido toda una red bastante sólida de
> argumentaciones; aunque comparto la opinión de que sus comparaciones
> resultan, muchas veces, más bien imprecisas en el plano semántico. No sé si
> podría ser de otro modo en una hipótesis de parentesco tan remota como seria
> ésta.****
> Queda, sin embargo, una cuestión que a mi juicio no ha sido abordada como
> se merecía y que podría haber sido relevante para esta comparación: ¿cuál
> es  la relación de las lenguas Yeniseicas y del grupo Athabaska-Eyak-Tlingit
> (abreviado AET de aquí en más) con el Haida? En la segunda página de su
> trabajo, Vajda rechaza categóricamente la comparación con el Haida,
> afirmando que "…is no demonstrable genetic relationship between Haida and
> Na-Dene". Pero antes se había expresado de una manera mucho más cautelosa
> acerca de esta posibilidad (véase Kari y Vajda 2008: 1): "What is the status
> of Haida *vis-a-vis* Athabaskan-Eyak-Tlingit? Of particular importance is
> the recent article by John Enrico on Na-Dene published in Anthropological
> Linguistics (2004:46:229-302)". Por otra parte, las comparaciones léxicas
> a las que Vajda (2008) remite para rechazar la relación AET-Haida parecen
> reducirse -en esencia- a las efectuadas por Ruhlen (1998). Tales
> comparaciones –como en mi opinión todas las comparaciones de Ruhlen en
> general- resultan, efectivamente, desechables. Sin embargo, la comparación
>  más importante que se ha publicado entre Haida y Na-Denés es la de Enrico
> (2004). Este último autor sí conoce (como Vajda) la metodología y posibles
> alcances de la lingüística histórico-comparativa y además es
> --posiblemente-- el mayor especialista en lengua Haida entre los lingüistas
> actuales (tal como Vajda parece serlo en relación a las lenguas
> Yeniseicas). Habiéndose publicado el trabajo de Enrico en una revista de
> fácil acceso, no entiendo las razones por las que Vajda (2008) no discute
> sus comparaciones, prefiriendo hacerlo con las indefendibles de Ruhlen. En
> mi opinión, hay algunas homologías interesantes entre Yeniseico, AET y Haida
> que parecen surgir de una comparación entre los trabajos de Vajda (2008) y
> de Enrico (2004), p. ej. los siguientes aparentes isomorfismos gramaticales:
> ****
> ** **
>  -- Ket *h(u)-,* PA **qU-,* Tlingit *qU**- *(Vajda 2008: 15, tabla 15))
> 'areal prefix' :: Haida (Enrico 2004: 255, serie 68) *qEw* (< **quu*)
> 'spreading (smoke, fog, heat, mass of individuals or some other substance)',
> ****
> ** **
>  -- Proto-Yeniseico (Vajda 2008: 17, 19, y también 16, tabla 16) **x…** *
> '1st. p. singular', PA **Si *'1st. p. sing. (pronoun)', **S-  ~ *s-** *'1
> st. p. sing. (subject prefix)', Eyak *xu* '1st.. p. sing. (pronoun)', *x-
> ~ s-* '1st. p. sing. (subject prefix)', Tlingit *Xád* '1st.. p. sing.
> (pronoun)', *Xa**-* '1st. p. sing. (subject prefix)' :: pre-Haida (Enrico
> 2004: 262, tabla 10) **X-* [precedido por otros elementos] '1st. p. sing.
> (subject/object prefix)',****
>  ****
> -- Proto-Yeniseico (Vajda 2008: 17, 19) **wE *o **hWE** *'3rd person (free
> pronoun)', (Enrico 2004: 257, serie 90) PA **wE *'3rd person obviative
> (pronoun)', Tlingit *hú** ~ húu *'3rdperson (pronoun)' :: Haida
> (Skidegate) *'u*, (Masserie, Alaska) *'wa* '3rd  person obviative
> (pronoun)',****
>  ****
> -- Proto-Yeniseico (Vajda 2008: 23, tabla 21) **da*- 'a verb-deriving
> prefix', Proto-AET **dE-*'"classifier" prefix, decreasing transitivity' ::
> pre-Haida (Enrico 2004: 262, tabla 10) **d-* 'marcador de no agentividad
> (en el pronombre de 1a  p. sing.)',****
>  ****
> -- Proto-Yeniseico (Vajda 2008: 23, tabla 21) **g"-* (< **L**-*) 'a
> verb-deriving prefix', Proto-AET **L**-*  '"classifier" prefix, increasing
> transitivity' :: pre-Haida (Enrico 2004: 263) **L-* 'marcador de
> agentividad (en el pronombre de 1a p. sing.)',****
>  ****
> -- Proto-Yeniseico (Vajda 2008: 23-4) **-(t)L*, PA **-tL* 'instrumental',
> (Enrico 2004: 257, serie 85) PA **(h)i'L* (< **(hi)tL'*), Eyak *tl'*,
> Tlingit *'iin'with'* :: Haida *'EL** ~ 'Ed* 'with; because of; at the same
> time as; and'.****
>  ****
> O semejanzas léxicas como las siguientes:****
>  ****
> -- (Vajda 2008: 42, tabla 29; Enrico 2004: 248, serie 19) Ket *tv'*, Yugh
> *tv'*, Arin *ke*, PA **tsí'** *'head', **tsíghaang *'brain', Eyak *tsing'*
> *-dE *'neck', Tlingit *Sá** *'head' :: Haida *ts'E**-*, *ts'a**-* en: *
> ts'Ek'i* 'occiput, nape of the neck', *ts'Ele*, 'pillow', *qEsEn** ts'ang*'brain'.
> ****
>  ****
> -- (Vajda 2008: 45, tabla 30; Enrico 2004: 250, serie 32) Ket *sil**- *en
> *silgit* 'molten fat', *siil ~ siili** *'summer', Proto-Athabaska **síl**
> *'steam, vapor', **zil *'be hot' :: Haida *sEL*, *sEl gudE* 'steam (tr.
> verb)'.****
>  ****
> -- (Vajda 2008: 53; Enrico 2004: 255, serie 73) Ket *–qan*, Yugh *Xan*'cook, boil', Kott
> *–gan* 'cook, burn', PA *q'a·n* 'burn, ignite', Eyak *q'a *'burn', Tlingit
> *gaan** *'burn' :: Haida *GEy**- *possibly 'burning', cf. *GEynE*'driftwood',
> *GEyuu* 'give off smoke', *GEyxid* 'ashes'. ****
>  ****
> -- (Vajda 2008: 53; Enrico 2004: 255, serie 69 [en parte]) Ket *qo**· *'outer
> part of mouth', *qo'n* 'lips', *ka·t* 'edge, fringe', PA **q'a'**  *'edge',
> Eyak *q'e'**  *'mouth', Tlingit *X'e *'outer part of mouth' :: Haida *q'yuu
> *'entrance of enclosed space'.****
>  ****
> -- (Vajda 2008: 53; Enrico 2004: 256, serie 76) Ket *qa·-de**  *'wool,
> hair', Yugh *Xa·t*  'hair', Kott *he-ngai** * 'hair', PA **qaw* (or?) **-
> gha' *'hair', Eyak *Xu'** *'fur', Tlingit *Xaaw** *'fur, hair' :: Haida *
> GEw** *'hair, fur, bird plummage'.****
>  ****
> -- (Vajda 2008: 55; Enrico 2004: 252, serie 45) Ket *èn** *'son-in-law',
> PA **Len *(Vajda) 'son-in-law', (Enrico) 'man's brother-in-law' :: Haida *
> LEnEGu** *'sister-in-law, brother-in-law'****
>  ****
> Así las cosas, me queda la vaga sensación de que una relación genética del
> Haida con las lenguas AET y Yeniseicas podría ser eventualmente posible. En
> cualquier caso, la inclusión o no del Haida en este grupo lingüístico no es
> un hecho intranscendente. Si el parentesco de todas estas lenguas finalmente
> se demostrara, y si resultara que el Haida fuese (como algunos indicios
> parecen sugerir) la rama más divergente, entonces el lugar de origen más
> plausible se encontraría en alguna parte de Alaska (plausiblemente, en su
> costa sur), y habría que suponer que los hablantes de lenguas Yeniseicas
> habrían emigrado desde allí hasta Siberia central. De comprobarse esta
> hipótesis, resultaría éste el único caso conocido de expansión de una
> familia de lenguas originaria del continente americano hacia otra parte del
> mundo.****
>   ****
> *Referencias* ****
> Enrico, John (2004): Towards Preoto-Na-Dene, *Anthropological Linguistics*46 (3): 229-302.
> ****
> Kari, James y Edward Vajda (2008); Some questions prompted by the
> Dene-Yeniseic hypothesis <
> http://eres.uaf.edu/tempfiles/tmp15817/DY_disc_ques7.pdf> ****
> Ruhlen, Merrit (1998): The origin of Na-Dene, *Proceedings of the National
> Academy of Sciences *95 (13): 994-996. ****
> Vajda, Edward (2008): A Siberian link with Na-Dene languages. <
> http://eres.uaf.edu/tempfiles/tmp15877/SiberianLinkWithNaDene.pdf>****
>   ****
> Símbolos:****
> *E** *schwa, *gh* fricativa velar sonora, *g"** *aproximante velar,* G** *
> oclusiva* *uvular sonora, *L* fricativa* *lateral* *sorda*, ng *nasal
> velar,* S *fricativa* *alveo*-*palatal* *sorda, *tL* africada* *lateral* *
> sorda*, U** *vocal *u* abierta o relajada ("reducida", en la terminología
> de los athabakanistas), *v *vocal alta posterior no redondeada, *'  *oclusión
> glotal.****
>
>
>
>  *De:* "kariri at gmail.com" <kariri at gmail.com>
> *Para:* etnolinguistica at yahoogrupos.com.br
> *Enviadas:* Sexta-feira, 7 de Março de 2008 18:02
> *Assunto:* [etnolinguistica] Linguist List Issue: Linguists demonstrate
> Siberian-North American link
>
>  Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro thought you might be interested in this item from
> the LINGUIST List
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro says ...
>
> Prezados,
>
> Aos que já leram a mensagem abaixo, minhas desculpas pela repetição.
>
> Fico imaginando que estimativa de profundidade temporal atribuiriam ao
> "Proto Na-Dene/Yeniseic" -- e que conseqüências isto teria para a
> (re-a)avaliação dos limites do método comparativo. .. Algum palpite?
>
> Abraços,
>
> Eduardo
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> Message1: Linguists demonstrate Siberian-North American link
> Date:02-Mar- 2008
> From:Andrea Berez aberez at umail. ucsb.edu <aberez%40umail.ucsb.edu>
> LINGUIST List issue http://linguistlist .org/issues/ 19/19-717. html<http://linguistlist.org/issues/19/19-717.html>
>
> Feb. 28, 2008
>
> A long-sought connection between Siberian and North American language
> families has been demonstrated by linguists from Washington and Alaska.
> Professor Edward Vajda of Western Washington University (Bellingham) , a
> specialist on the Ket language isolate spoken by a shrinking number of
> elders living along the Yenisei River of central Siberia, combining ten
> years of library and field work on Ket and relying on the earlier work of
> Heinrich Werner on the now-extinct relatives of Ket, has clarified the
> dauntingly complex morphology and phonology of Ket and its Yeniseic
> congeners. At a symposium held Feb. 26-27 at the University of Alaska,
> Fairbanks and a panel to take place Feb. 29 at the Alaska Anthropological
> Association annual meeting in Anchorage, Vajda shows that the abstract
> forms of lexical and grammatical morphemes and the rules of composition of
> the Ket verb find systematic and numerous parallels in the Na-Dene
> protolanguage reconstructed to account for the modern Tlingit and Eyak
> languages and the Athabaskan language family (whose daughters include
> Gwich'in, Koyukon, Dena'ina and others of Alaska, Hupa of California, and
> Navajo of the U.S. Southwest). The comparison was made possible by recent
> advances in the analysis of Tlingit phonology and Tlingit-Athabaskan- Eyak
> presented at the same symposium by Prof. Jeff Leer of the University of
> Alaska, Fairbanks, and by earlier work by Prof. Michael Krauss of UAF on
> the now-extinct Eyak language and on comparative Athabaskan, and on
> Athabaskan lexicography and verb stem analysis by symposium organizer Prof.
> James Kari of UAF. Working independently, Vajda and the Alaska linguists
> have arrived at abstract stem shapes and ancestral wordforms too numerous
> and displaying too many idiosyncratic parallels to be explained by anything
> other than common descent. The comparison also shows conclusively that
> Haida, sometimes associated with Na-Dene, is not related.
>
> The distance from the Yeniseian range to that the most distant Athabaskan
> languages is the greatest overland distance covered by any known language
> spread not using wheeled transport or sails. Archaeologist Prof. Ben
> Potter of UAF reviewed the postglacial prehistory of Beringia and
> speculated that the Na-Dene speakers may descend from some of the earliest
> colonizers of the Americas, who eventually created the successful and
> long-lived Northern Archaic tool tradition that dominated interior and
> northern Alaska almost until historical times.
>
> Vajda's work has been well vetted. In addition to Na-Dene specialists
> Krauss, Leer, and Kari, who have reacted favorably, the symposium was also
> attended by historical linguists Prof. Eric P. Hamp of the University of
> Chicago and Prof. Johanna Nichols of the University of California,
> Berkeley, both of whom announced their support for the proposed
> relationship, and Bernard Comrie, Director of the Linguistics Department,
> Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig and professor
> at UC Santa Barbara, endorsed Vajda's method. Athabaskanist Prof. Victor
> Golla of Humboldt State University, Eurasianist Prof. Michael Fortescue of
> the University of Copenhagen, Yeniseicist Dr. Heinrich Werner of Bonn
> (formerly of Taganrog University, Russia), Prof. Bernard Comrie (Max Plank
> Institute, Leipzig), and Prof. Nicholas Evans (Australian National
> University) read the draft of Vajda's report and reacted favorably [these
> five have not been consulted in the writing of this statement].
>
> A feature article will appear in the Anchorage Daily News on Tuesday, March
> 4, 2008. http://www.adn. com/ <http://www.adn.com/>
>
> Symposium website: http://www.uaf. edu/anlc/ dy2008.html<http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/dy2008.html>
>
> Contact:
> Jim Kari, UAF: ffjmk at uaf.edu
> Johanna Nichols, UC Berkeley: johanna at berkeley. edu<johanna%40berkeley.edu>
> Edward Vajda, Western Washington: eddievajda at yahoo. com<eddievajda%40yahoo.com>
>
> Linguistic Field(s): Anthropological Linguistics
> Genetic Classification
> Historical Linguistics
>
> Also you can take a look at it by visiting
> http://linguistlist .org/issues/ 19/19-717. html<http://linguistlist.org/issues/19/19-717.html>
>
> Read other LINGUIST List posts:
> http://linguistlist .org/issues/ index.html<http://linguistlist.org/issues/index.html>
>
> Get your own free subscription to The LINGUIST List:
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>
>
>
>  
>

-- 
Eduardo Rivail Ribeiro, lingüista
http://wado.us
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