[gothic-l] Re: Introduction of myself.

[Axeage]

Hi - I'm new here as well...

You said :"Visigothics are an important part of Spanish history. From
V century to VIII , with the arab invasion. They didn't bring new
ideas, but some of our current Spanish vocabulary is based on Gothic
words, mainly of war issues. So an understanding of Gothic is a bit
of understanding of my own (rich) culture."

The Visigoths were indeed an very important part of Spanish history.
I personally think that people don't give them enough credit, since
most Spaniards still see the Goths as nothing more than fur-clad, axe-
wielding barbarians - which as everyone here probably knows, is
totally false. The truth is that that it was the Visigoths who gave
birth to Spain as a nation by uniting the various regions and ethnic
groups. It was the Visigoths who led the reconquest, and It was the
Visigothic code of hononor which became the spanish ideal of
chivalry.

You said: "I want to state clear that I'm not a nazi and that I don't
like Gothic music. Although some drops of Gothic blood may run my
veins, I'm more than sure that I have more of : Latin ,Iberian (in
any of their flavour tribes), Arab, Jew, Greek."

Since when does having an interest in your ancestry and country's
past qualify you as a nazi??? About those groups of people you've
mentioned - it really depends what part of Spain you come from
(Ex:the Basques have none of these, while the Andalusians have the
most Berber blood in all of Spain) The Germanic element is definetely
an important one - much more so than the Arabic, Jewish, and Greek:

1.Latins/Romans: Roman settlers did come in large numbers, but they
tended to settle in eastern and southern colonies such as Cadiz,
Seville, Tarragona, Merida, and Malaga.

2.Arabs: Arabs were never of any real significance, you must be
talking about the Berbers (Moors). The majority of the Berbers were
kicked out in the 15th century with the fall of Granada. Many were
allowed to stay if they converted to Catholicism - but in 1609, king
Felipe had them expelled anyway. This does not mean that many mixed
Catholic Berber/hispanic children were not born though. This was
common enough - especially in Andalusia.

3.Jews: The Jews were similar to the Romans - as they came in large
numbers, but usually stuck to the major towns and cities such as
Barcelona, Seville, and so on. They basically met the same fate as
the Berbers after the fall of Granada. Just like the Berbers, the
Jews that were not immidiately kicked out were allowed to stay if
they converted to Catholicism, but they were constantly harassed by
the Inquisition, and were eventually expelled anyway. It is safe to
say that people of part Jewish ancestry had it even worse than people
of part Berber ancestry.

4.Greeks: The Greeks are the least important of this group - as they
were too few in numbers, and did not come with any intentions of
settling the land, aside from a few trading posts along the
mediterranean. Greek ancestry is very unlikely.

...by the way - you totally forgot about the Iberian Celts!!

I'd say that most Spaniards are basically a mixture of Iberians,
Celts, Romans, and Germanics. Although many Andalusians and southern
Spaniards may have some moorish blood.

You said: "And I have a question for you, I've heard that "Gutierrez"
is gothic  and it means "the man who leads the army". In Sanskrit
Goptri (-->Gupta) (probably related to it) means "the man who leads
the army",too. So, does it have that meaning?"

Hmmm, this is a tough one. I too have heard that names ending with
"ez" are of gothic origin. Surnames ending with "ez" mean "son of",
but I have no clue as to wether "ez" is gothic for "son".  Gutierrez
actually means "son of the man who leads the army". Itis probable
that many spanish names ending with "ez" are of gothic origin because
when you see the names connected to them - they are very gothic
sounding. For example: "Rodriguez" means "son of Rodrigo", but
Rodrigo is the hispanc version of "Roderic". "Gonzalez" means "son of
Gonzalo", "Gonzalo" is the hispanic version of "Kinsolving".

You said: "What's more? , in V century 100,000 visigothics invaded
Spain, controlling a 6,000,000 million strong country... BTW, it was
Hispania (Spain + Portugal). For almost two centuries, they had the
military control and they mixed with the local latin nobleness...
Even so, by VIII century Visigothics could be considered Spanish and
not invaders any more."

Actually, it is believed that it was closer to 200,000. Add to this
number an additional 80,000 Suevies and another 80,000 Vandals. This
equals to atleast 360,000 Germanics in a country who's population
ranged somewhere between 4-6 million - this is a pretty significant
number if you ask me. If 5,000 Vikings is enough to name an entire
region of France "Normandy" how can hundreds of thousands of Germanics
living in Hispania be dismissed as a minor element? Why not a spanish
"Scandza"?
Like I said, most Spaniards do not give enough credit to the Goths.
It is true that that by the 8th century the Goths could no longer be
considered ethnically gothic. Some Germanic tribes such as the
Franks, the Saxons, the Angles, etc. travelled only a few hundred
miles to their new settlements in northen France, Belgium, and
England. These tribes could easily take their entire families with
them and therefore successfully preserve their ethnic identity for
much longer, but the germanic tribes that settled in Hispania
(Visigoths, Suevies, Vandals) were made up almost entirely of male
adventurers who had travelled hundreds of thousands of miles and
could not take their families with them. This resulted in most of
them taking up hispanic wives and therefore dissapearing as a
distinct ethnic group faster than the germanic tribes further up
north.




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