[gothic-l] Re: Introduction of myself.

[Manuel Gutierrez Algaba]

On Wed, 16 Aug 2000, Axeage  wrote:
> 
> The Visigoths were indeed an very important part of Spanish history. 
> I personally think that people don't give them enough credit, since 
> most Spaniards still see the Goths as nothing more than fur-clad, axe-
> wielding barbarians - which as everyone here probably knows, is 
> totally false.

Well, Visigothics were quite "civilized" Germanic people, hundreds
of years more civilized than Saxons. The proof of it is their
artwork:
- Jewelry . Crowns for Saints. 
- Small traces of architecture. Some visigothics columns were
reused for the Mosque of Cordoba ( for example)

And that they had in mind the idea of "a state". Most countries
in Europe claim to be the oldest one. Undoubtfully Rome created
an empire of cities depending from them. But, Rome were mainly
the combination of Law+Legions. I think there were no idea of 
"nationalism" in the "germanic" sense of it. Of course, romans
regarded themselves as superior. But "romans" from Londinium
(for example) or "romans" from "Emerita Augusta" didn't have the
same feelings than people from Manchester and people from Birmighan.
And yes, Visigothics considered Hispania a personal property.
Hispania was theirs and therefore, Franks and any other germanic
tribe was enemy. Thinking this way, they created the first "modern"
state of Europe. Other tribes fight for territory (which could
be split (in the case of Franks) ) or migrate. But visigothics
never split Hispania, and never migrate (till the end), they 
imprinted some kind of unity, that was a model for the future
(of Spain and Europe).


> The truth is that that it was the Visigoths who gave 
> birth to Spain as a nation by uniting the various regions and ethnic 
> groups.

This was a two step work:
- Romans erode small wars between all the groups and stablish 
a common law , and an internal peace.
- Visigothics supply the idea of "Us". First for themselves, but
somehow that idea extended to the whole of the population, specially
from X century onwards.

> It was the Visigoths who led the reconquest, and It was the 
> Visigothic code of hononor which became the spanish ideal of 
> chivalry. 

One difference between "French Chivalry songs and romances"
and "Spanish Chivalry songs" is that French tend to be French ( :) )
and lie and exagerate things (deliberately ) to unbelivable points
and Spanish Chivalry stories whose highest point is "El cantar
del Mio Cid" are very realistic. I think this is a gift from
Visigothics : to be frank, to be humble if necessary but always
telling the truth and being realistic and of course be brave. 
This idea ,I think, is very "germanic", very simple (like germanus
were) and I think is theirs. Probably it's the only "germanic" idea
in Spanish character. Don Quixote is probably an essay about gothic
ideas (???). 

> 
> Since when does having an interest in your ancestry and country's 
> past qualify you as a nazi??? About those groups of people you've 
> mentioned - it really depends what part of Spain you come from 

I come from South, but lots of people migrate from north, so I have
blood of almost every place (basque included).

> (Ex:the Basques have none of these, while the Andalusians have the 
> most Berber blood in all of Spain)

This is not true. In fact, Vitoria in Basque Country was a city
founded by Visigothics ( Victoriaco , the city of Victory) due to
a victory over basques. Old Basques were enclosed in a very tiny
region of Spain, and little is left of them. Besides, basques were
the people who resettle christian land. Castilla in fact is 
neighbouring to Basques. We are really mixed.

> The Germanic element is definetely 
> an important one - much more so than the Arabic, Jewish, and Greek:
>  
> 1.Latins/Romans: Roman settlers did come in large numbers, but they 
> tended to settle in eastern and southern colonies such as Cadiz, 
> Seville, Tarragona, Merida, and Malaga.

I picture it this way:
- A pure Roman descendent living in Italica (Seville) in
715 A.D. fleeds north escaping from arabs. 
- A pure Roman descendent living in Italica in 1230 fleeds south
escaping from Christian.

How many migrations? diseases in cities? migrations from city
to countryside? resettlements from Africa, Northern Spain?
It's very complex. 

> 
> 2.Arabs: Arabs were never of any real significance, you must be 
> talking about the Berbers (Moors). The majority of the Berbers were 
> kicked out in the 15th century with the fall of Granada. Many were 
> allowed to stay if they converted to Catholicism - but in 1609, king 
> Felipe had them expelled anyway. This does not mean that many mixed 
> Catholic Berber/hispanic children were not born though. This was  
> common enough - especially in Andalusia.

Well, in Valencia (easth) there were important colonies and in
Aragon there were a lot. Truly, masses of Moors were sent back
to Africa. But, in fact, many muslims were of Roman/Iberian/visigothic
origin and they were sent to Africa too. Most of 5 million in (8 
century)
people under arab goberment stay in their land, and most converted
to Islam, just to survive. And, from 1200 to 1500 lots of mixing
and convertions happened in South Spain. So, berber blood is here
too. And the influence of arab vocabulary in Spanish can be 
resumed saying that 6000 common Spanish words are arabs.

> 
> 3.Jews: The Jews were similar to the Romans - as they came in large 
> numbers, but usually stuck to the major towns and cities such as 
> Barcelona, Seville, and so on. They basically met the same fate as 
> the Berbers after the fall of Granada.

There were lots of conversions, some surnames like :
- Gil 
are known for being used for conversors.

Ok, masses of jews were sent to Portugal/north europe/Africa....
But, undoubtfully some of them converted... and that "some" can 
be "many".

> Just like the Berbers, the 
> Jews that were not immidiately kicked out were allowed to stay if 
> they converted to Catholicism, but they were constantly harassed by 
> the Inquisition


> 
> 4.Greeks: The Greeks are the least important of this group - as they 
> were too few in numbers, and did not come with any intentions of 
> settling the land, aside from a few trading posts along the 
> mediterranean. Greek ancestry is very unlikely.

You're wrong. They were not few, truly they founded cities in 
the coasts, but they founded 100+ . Besides they collaborated 
massively with Romans, so their cities grew a lot and in fact,
occupied some land of native iberians during Pax Romana.

> ...by the way - you totally forgot about the Iberian Celts!! 

Celtiberians . Well, the interesting mix of Celts and Iberian.
Living in the center of Spain. Well, Numantia and some other
heroic wars probably left celtiberian population to a testimonial
role in Spanish gene.
 Iberians? are they semitic? are they north africans
?
old europeans? And celts , yes they live/lived in Galicia.
Are basques iberians ?

> 
> I'd say that most Spaniards are basically a mixture of Iberians, 
> Celts, Romans, and Germanics. 

Yes, but to what extent? I think it's basically unmeasurable. I
wouldn't measure even the semitic/indoeuropean/african variables.

>Although many Andalusians and southern 
> Spaniards may have some moorish blood.

This is not true, simply because thousands of people from north 
founded towns in the south. 

> 
> You said: "And I have a question for you, I've heard that "Gutierrez" 
> is gothic  and it means "the man who leads the army". In Sanskrit
> Goptri (-->Gupta) (probably related to it) means "the man who leads 
> the army",too. So, does it have that meaning?"
> 
> Hmmm, this is a tough one. I too have heard that names ending with 
> "ez" are of gothic origin. Surnames ending with "ez" mean "son of", 

Well, it's the "is" ending of indoeuropean. 

> but I have no clue as to wether "ez" is gothic for "son".  Gutierrez 
> Gonzalo", "Gonzalo" is the hispanic version of "Kinsolving".

Gonzalo comes from Gundinsalvo.

> 
> Actually, it is believed that it was closer to 200,000. Add to this 
> number an additional 80,000 Suevies and another 80,000 Vandals.

Vandals quickly passed to Africa. And Suevis, yes, they live
in Galicia. Galicia is probably the most "germanic/celtic" part of
 Spain.


> This 
> equals to atleast 360,000 Germanics in a country who's population 
> ranged somewhere between 4-6 million - this is a pretty significant 
> number if you ask me.

It's 5-10 % at most.

> If 5,000 Vikings is enough to name an entire 
> region of France "Normandy" how can hundreds of thousands of Germanics
> living in Hispania be dismissed as a minor element?

Because Normandy was an _empty_ place. And, they were not 5000.

> Why not a spanish 
> "Scandza"?
> Like I said, most Spaniards do not give enough credit to the Goths. 

We give credit to them ( if you can supersede nowadays subnationalism
feelings ). 

> It is true that that by the 8th century the Goths could no longer be 
> considered ethnically gothic.

I think they were very ethnically gothic.

> Some Germanic tribes such as the 
> Franks, the Saxons, the Angles, etc. travelled only a few hundred 
> miles to their new settlements in northen France, Belgium, and 
> England. These tribes could easily take their entire families with 
> them and therefore successfully preserve their ethnic identity for 
> much longer, but the germanic tribes that settled in Hispania 
> (Visigoths, Suevies, Vandals) were made up almost entirely of male 
> adventurers who had travelled hundreds of thousands of miles and 
> could not take their families with them. This resulted in most of 
> them taking up hispanic wives and therefore dissapearing as a 
> distinct ethnic group faster than the germanic tribes further up 
> north.

No, they move with their families, and obviously they were:
180,000 gothic males
180,000 gothic females
200,000 horses and donkeys (many, now that I think about it).

Besides, Visigothics were a "federated" friend people of Rome, and
their movements inside the empire were not considered harmful. In 
fact, they move to Spain to "protect" it from other germanic 
tribes. 

Regards/Saludos
Manolo
www.ctv.es/USERS/irmina    /TeEncontreX.html   /texpython.htm
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