[gothic-l] Re: Germanic Migrations

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

The paper by Dahl will be part of the up-comming book "The
Circum-Baltic Languages: Their Typology and Contacts", Amsterdam, by
Dahl, Oesten and Koptjevska Tamm, Masja.

Sorry for not giving the full reference before, I forgot.

Dirk

--- In gothic-l at egroups.com, "Svein Nestor" <NESTOR at s...> wrote:
> To:             	gothic-l at egroups.com
> From:           	dirk at s...
> Date sent:      	Fri, 03 Nov 2000 11:44:56 -0000
> Send reply to:  	gothic-l at egroups.com
> Subject:        	[gothic-l] Re: Germanic Migrations
>
> The paper "The Origin of the Scandinavian Languages" by Oesten
> Dahl seems very interesting, so I hope that Dirk can give us details
> about where to find it. Generally I think we all on this list ought
to
> inform each other better on publishers and sources where
> interesting material can be found.
>
> Svein Nestor
>
> > Hi again, I would just like to add a further interesting reference
> > about the Germanic 'Urheimat' (=origin) problem. The linguist
Oesten
> > Dahl has recently published a paper called " The Origin of
> > Scandinavian Languages".
> >
> > Dahl starts by presenting the old so called 'Common Nordic
> > Hypothesis'  (i.e. out-of-Scandinavia) citing 19th. C. linguist
> > Noreen, but also Robertson (1993).
> >
> > Dahl argues "However, recent research has tended to associated the
> > genesis of the Germanic peoples as an identifiable grouping with
the
> > rise of the iron technology in northern Europe, notable the
Jastorf
> > culture whose centre was situated in present-day Lower Saxony
> > (Germany) aproximately between 600-300 BCE......places the
> > (pre-Jastorf) Urheimat firmly between Elbe, the Erzgebirge and the
> > Thuringian Forest, a fair distance from Scandinavia....
Scandinavia
> > does not, by and large, share any of the oldest layers of Germanic
> > place names."(p.5)
> >
> > See also the comments by Prof. Elert below
> >
> > Dirk
> >
> >
> > --- In gothic-l at egroups.com, dirk at s... wrote:
> > > Hi, below are the answers given to me by Prof. Elert a Swedish
> > > linguist about the problem of the origin of
Germanic/Proto-Germanic.
> > > (the numbered questions are from me, the answer/view below was
given
> > > by Prof. Elert).
> > >
> > > > Dear Dr. Dirk Faltin,
> > > My answwers to your questions:
> > > >(1)  I would like to know if the the whole text is available in
> > > English?
> > > Answer: No.
> > > >
> > > (2) Can you clarify for me when, in your view, the settlement of
> > > Germanic/Proto-Germanic people of  Scandinavia started?
> > >
> > > My view is that the spread of the Germanic language took place
in
> > > 1000-500 BC, most likely around 700 BC. I would not use the word
> > > "settlement" . There is no reason to assume an invasion or
massive
> > > migration, rather a language shift.
> > >
> > > (3) and possibly from which site?
> > >
> > > It is generally assumed that there was a Germanic-speaking
> > population
> > > in parts of NW Germany aroudn 1000 BC. The hypothetic language
> > shift
> > > could be due to influence (and limited migration) fron this area
> > into
> > > Scandinavia. Other possibilities cannot be excluded. The Bronze
Age
> > > is
> > > period of much commerce and other connections between tribal
> > > societies
> > > in Europe. There are linguistic traces of  early contacts
between
> > > Germanic and the Baltic languages.
> > > Yours,
> > > Claes-Christian Elert
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > As Elert is seen as leading expert on Scandinavian linguistics,
I
> > > thought his views should be interesting to others on the list.
His
> > > views are in line with recent linguistic research on Germanic
> > > language
> > > development by Juergen Udolph. Both Udolph and Elert are seen as
> > > 'cutting edge' on the subject.
> > >
> > > Dirk
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In gothic-l at egroups.com, MCLSSAA2 at f... wrote:
> > > > --- In gothic-l at egroups.com, dirk at s... wrote:
> > > > > ... Saxony-Anhalt and Thuringia ...
> > > > > One short question. If the first Germans came to this area
say
> > > > > Thuringia in 500 BC from Scandinavia as you seem to suggest,
> > who
> > > was
> > > > > living there before this. The area was never settled by
Celts.
> > > Were
> > > > > they the remnants of the earlier megalithic cultures?
> > > >
> > > > Likely speaking a non-Indo-European language, which perished
> > > > unrecorded while the Middle East had had writing for over 1500
> > > years.
> > > > It is one of the greatest pities in linguistics that parchment
> > > wasn't
> > > > invented much sooner. Literacy needs bulk available writing
> > > material,
> > > > which meant:-
> > > >   (1) The area being arid enough for clay tablets to survive,
or
> > > >   (2) The area being within sailing range of Egypt to import
> > blank
> > > > papyrus, plus having something to trade for it.
> > > >   Central Europe is neither.
> > > >   Until someone discovered how to make parchment from animal
skin.
> >
> >
> >
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> be at egroups.com>.
> > Homepage: http://www.stormloader.com/carver/gothicl/index.html
> >


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