[gothic-l] Re: Germanic Migrations

[Svein Nestor]

To:             	gothic-l at egroups.com
From:           	dirk at smra.co.uk
Date sent:      	Fri, 03 Nov 2000 11:44:56 -0000
Send reply to:  	gothic-l at egroups.com
Subject:        	[gothic-l] Re: Germanic Migrations

The paper "The Origin of the Scandinavian Languages" by Oesten
Dahl seems very interesting, so I hope that Dirk can give us details
about where to find it. Generally I think we all on this list ought to
inform each other better on publishers and sources where
interesting material can be found.

Svein Nestor

> Hi again, I would just like to add a further interesting reference
> about the Germanic 'Urheimat' (=origin) problem. The linguist Oesten
> Dahl has recently published a paper called " The Origin of
> Scandinavian Languages".
>
> Dahl starts by presenting the old so called 'Common Nordic
> Hypothesis'  (i.e. out-of-Scandinavia) citing 19th. C. linguist
> Noreen, but also Robertson (1993).
>
> Dahl argues "However, recent research has tended to associated the
> genesis of the Germanic peoples as an identifiable grouping with the
> rise of the iron technology in northern Europe, notable the Jastorf
> culture whose centre was situated in present-day Lower Saxony
> (Germany) aproximately between 600-300 BCE......places the
> (pre-Jastorf) Urheimat firmly between Elbe, the Erzgebirge and the
> Thuringian Forest, a fair distance from Scandinavia.... Scandinavia
> does not, by and large, share any of the oldest layers of Germanic
> place names."(p.5)
>
> See also the comments by Prof. Elert below
>
> Dirk
>
>
> --- In gothic-l at egroups.com, dirk at s... wrote:
> > Hi, below are the answers given to me by Prof. Elert a Swedish
> > linguist about the problem of the origin of Germanic/Proto-Germanic.
> > (the numbered questions are from me, the answer/view below was given
> > by Prof. Elert).
> >
> > > Dear Dr. Dirk Faltin,
> > My answwers to your questions:
> > >(1)  I would like to know if the the whole text is available in
> > English?
> > Answer: No.
> > >
> > (2) Can you clarify for me when, in your view, the settlement of
> > Germanic/Proto-Germanic people of  Scandinavia started?
> >
> > My view is that the spread of the Germanic language took place in
> > 1000-500 BC, most likely around 700 BC. I would not use the word
> > "settlement" . There is no reason to assume an invasion or massive
> > migration, rather a language shift.
> >
> > (3) and possibly from which site?
> >
> > It is generally assumed that there was a Germanic-speaking
> population
> > in parts of NW Germany aroudn 1000 BC. The hypothetic language
> shift
> > could be due to influence (and limited migration) fron this area
> into
> > Scandinavia. Other possibilities cannot be excluded. The Bronze Age
> > is
> > period of much commerce and other connections between tribal
> > societies
> > in Europe. There are linguistic traces of  early contacts between
> > Germanic and the Baltic languages.
> > Yours,
> > Claes-Christian Elert
> >
> >
> >
> > As Elert is seen as leading expert on Scandinavian linguistics, I
> > thought his views should be interesting to others on the list. His
> > views are in line with recent linguistic research on Germanic
> > language
> > development by Juergen Udolph. Both Udolph and Elert are seen as
> > 'cutting edge' on the subject.
> >
> > Dirk
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In gothic-l at egroups.com, MCLSSAA2 at f... wrote:
> > > --- In gothic-l at egroups.com, dirk at s... wrote:
> > > > ... Saxony-Anhalt and Thuringia ...
> > > > One short question. If the first Germans came to this area say
> > > > Thuringia in 500 BC from Scandinavia as you seem to suggest,
> who
> > was
> > > > living there before this. The area was never settled by Celts.
> > Were
> > > > they the remnants of the earlier megalithic cultures?
> > >
> > > Likely speaking a non-Indo-European language, which perished
> > > unrecorded while the Middle East had had writing for over 1500
> > years.
> > > It is one of the greatest pities in linguistics that parchment
> > wasn't
> > > invented much sooner. Literacy needs bulk available writing
> > material,
> > > which meant:-
> > >   (1) The area being arid enough for clay tablets to survive, or
> > >   (2) The area being within sailing range of Egypt to import
> blank
> > > papyrus, plus having something to trade for it.
> > >   Central Europe is neither.
> > >   Until someone discovered how to make parchment from animal skin.
>
>
>
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