[gothic-l] Re: The Scandinavian Origin of the Goths and Other Germanic Peoples

[Tore Gannholm]

>Hi Tore,
>
>I did not say or mean that Gotland is too small. I just said that the
>proposition that the Germanic language originated in Gotland is
>somewhat too narrow (I think I used exactly these words)in my view.


Dirk, I don't believe that the Germanic language originated in Gotland but
that there was a cultural immigration about 1000-800 BC with a new burial
tradition and very possible a new language. It that case it came from the
east. Gotland had very close connections with the Skyten.
Skeppssättningar (stone settings in the form of ships, unique for Gotland)
more than 350 registered remains.

Typ              Gesamtmenge in Schweden   davon in Gotland     	%

Römische Silbermünzen (Denare)  	7500 		6500 		86,7
Sassaniden (226 - 651)           	120         	63 		52,5
Arabische Münzen (kufisch)    		67870        	49756    	73,3
Byzantinische Münzen             	576          	491  		85,2
Schwedische Münzen (1013-1050)   	781          	423           	54,2
Deutsche Münzen (950-1140)    	 	92890         	62144    	66,9
Englische Münzen              		41525         	25785 		62,1

These figures are before the very large Viking treasures found 2 years ago

There are very few Germanic imitations known in Gotland. I have seen a few.

Tore




I can see that you feel strongly about Gotland's place in history and
>many of the things that you wrote were new and interesting to me.
>Especially the info about Roman coin finds on Gotland. If you have
>more information about this, especially about so called Germanic
>imitations of Roman coins from Gotland (they do exist but little is
>known in the literature)I would be very interested to hear about it.
>
>Dirk
>Thanks for the book reference. I shall have a look.
>
>--- In gothic-l at egroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
>> >Hello Dirk,
>> >
>> >You wrote:
>> >
>> >>Personally I think that any claim of origin for the Germanic
>people
>> >>is  inevitably incorrect. The whole procesess took place
>dynamically
>> >>over time and space and my comment was targeted against claims
>that
>> >>the Germanic people originated in Scandinavia which is just as
>wrong
>> >>as the claim the the Germanic people originated in today's
>Germany.
>> >
>> >Yes, I agree that the "fazit" is, that it is simply not known.
>> >I, in my turn react a bit against (some) Germans who seem to think
>> >that "of course" the Germanics originitated (somewhere) in Germany,
>> >and think of the Scandinavians as a kind of German settlers.
>> >
>> >"Gotland" was only chosen as an example - a kind of compromise,
>> >a kind of "let's meet in the middle" (of the Baltic).
>> >But it is of course true that it probably is a hospitable place
>> >that must have been relatively more isolated than the
>> >Danish islands. I have not been to Gotland, but you say that it
>> >is "too small".
>>
>>
>> For what is Gotland too small??
>>
>> If Gotland claimed back all archaeological finds that has been
>taken from
>> Gotland and brought to the Historical museum in Stockholm that
>museum would
>> probably have to close down.
>>
>> Only on coins from Roman time until early middle ages found in the
>present
>> day Sweden 2/3 of all coins come from Gotland.
>>
>> Dirk, if you can read German as I understand I would recommend.
>> 2000 Jahre Handel und Kultur im Ostseegebiet
>> - Gotland, Perle der Ostsee
>> ISBN 91-972306-6-9
>>
>> Tore
>>
>>
>>
>> That reminds me of a saying [about the Zurich
>> >bankers]: "Auch die Gnomen haben klein angefangen>"
>> >
>> >On another account, that is only distantly related to the present
>> >discussion, I always pay attention when I hear about discoveries
>> >of very early human remains in SW Scandinavia, and it now seems
>> >that human beings also lived on the Scandinavian peninsula
>> >_during_ the Ice Age. (in the coastal areas where everything wasn't
>> >covered with ice, as was previously thought)
>> >
>> >Sweden however, seems to have been _entirely_ covered with ice.
>> >That is clear whereever a lot of sand and rubble is found.
>> >
>> >The question then is what people lived off.
>> >
>> >Archaeologists who have tried to popularize their insights,
>> >have represented the people of those days as a kind of eskimos,
>> >using harpoons and small boats for hunting and fishing.
>> >
>> >So maybe, if there during periods was _a lot of fish_, there
>> >may also have been a rapid increase in the population,
>> >as long as they lived near a place here there was a good food-
>supply.
>> >But on the whole, I think the main viewpoint is that people in
>those
>> >days were much more mobile than they became thousands of years
>later
>> >when agriculture was taken up.
>> >
>> >But when we consider the question of the arising of Proto-Germanic
>> >as a separate language, we were of course already well into the
>> >agricultural period. A linear kind of reasoning would then
>> >imply that it was the agriculturalists (=Indo Europeans)
>> >who became the first Germans, wherever their centre of
>> >development was. But was it like that? Perhaps linguistics gives
>> >some hints here; i.e. word counts could
>> >indicate what kind of society it can have been. But of
>> >such I only have a memory of someone saying
>> >that Germanic contains a large percentage of extraneous words.
>> >
>> >Perhaps one should also consider that a strong iron age culture
>> >could only arise where there was a good supply of iron ore.
>> >Of course, Sweden _was_ such a place, with lots of timber
>> >as well. (timber for producing charcoal to process the iron)
>> >
>> >Keth
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a
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>> >to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.
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>
>
>
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