[gothic-l] Re: The Scandinavian Origin of the Goths and Other Germanic Peoples
dirk at SMRA.CO.UK
dirk at SMRA.CO.UK
Mon Nov 6 09:37:09 UTC 2000
--- In gothic-l at egroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> >Hi Tore,
> >
> >I did not say or mean that Gotland is too small. I just said that
the
> >proposition that the Germanic language originated in Gotland is
> >somewhat too narrow (I think I used exactly these words)in my view.
>
>
> Dirk, I don't believe that the Germanic language originated in
Gotland but
> that there was a cultural immigration about 1000-800 BC with a new
burial
> tradition and very possible a new language. It that case it came
from the
> east. Gotland had very close connections with the Skyten.
> Skeppssättningar (stone settings in the form of ships, unique for
Gotland)
> more than 350 registered remains.
>
> Typ Gesamtmenge in Schweden davon in Gotland
%
>
> Römische Silbermünzen (Denare) 7500 6500
86,7
> Sassaniden (226 - 651) 120 63
52,5
> Arabische Münzen (kufisch) 67870 49756
73,3
> Byzantinische Münzen 576 491
85,2
> Schwedische Münzen (1013-1050) 781 423
54,2
> Deutsche Münzen (950-1140) 92890 62144
66,9
> Englische Münzen 41525 25785
62,1
>
> These figures are before the very large Viking treasures found 2
years ago
>
> There are very few Germanic imitations known in Gotland. I have seen
a few.
>
> Tore
>
>
>
Hi Tore,
these numbers are astonishing and seem to underscore the importance of
Gotland as commercial and probably power centre.
Thanks
Dirk
>
> I can see that you feel strongly about Gotland's place in history
and
> >many of the things that you wrote were new and interesting to me.
> >Especially the info about Roman coin finds on Gotland. If you have
> >more information about this, especially about so called Germanic
> >imitations of Roman coins from Gotland (they do exist but little is
> >known in the literature)I would be very interested to hear about
it.
> >
> >Dirk
> >Thanks for the book reference. I shall have a look.
> >
> >--- In gothic-l at egroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...>
wrote:
> >> >Hello Dirk,
> >> >
> >> >You wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>Personally I think that any claim of origin for the Germanic
> >people
> >> >>is inevitably incorrect. The whole procesess took place
> >dynamically
> >> >>over time and space and my comment was targeted against claims
> >that
> >> >>the Germanic people originated in Scandinavia which is just as
> >wrong
> >> >>as the claim the the Germanic people originated in today's
> >Germany.
> >> >
> >> >Yes, I agree that the "fazit" is, that it is simply not known.
> >> >I, in my turn react a bit against (some) Germans who seem to
think
> >> >that "of course" the Germanics originitated (somewhere) in
Germany,
> >> >and think of the Scandinavians as a kind of German settlers.
> >> >
> >> >"Gotland" was only chosen as an example - a kind of compromise,
> >> >a kind of "let's meet in the middle" (of the Baltic).
> >> >But it is of course true that it probably is a hospitable place
> >> >that must have been relatively more isolated than the
> >> >Danish islands. I have not been to Gotland, but you say that it
> >> >is "too small".
> >>
> >>
> >> For what is Gotland too small??
> >>
> >> If Gotland claimed back all archaeological finds that has been
> >taken from
> >> Gotland and brought to the Historical museum in Stockholm that
> >museum would
> >> probably have to close down.
> >>
> >> Only on coins from Roman time until early middle ages found in
the
> >present
> >> day Sweden 2/3 of all coins come from Gotland.
> >>
> >> Dirk, if you can read German as I understand I would recommend.
> >> 2000 Jahre Handel und Kultur im Ostseegebiet
> >> - Gotland, Perle der Ostsee
> >> ISBN 91-972306-6-9
> >>
> >> Tore
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> That reminds me of a saying [about the Zurich
> >> >bankers]: "Auch die Gnomen haben klein angefangen>"
> >> >
> >> >On another account, that is only distantly related to the
present
> >> >discussion, I always pay attention when I hear about discoveries
> >> >of very early human remains in SW Scandinavia, and it now seems
> >> >that human beings also lived on the Scandinavian peninsula
> >> >_during_ the Ice Age. (in the coastal areas where everything
wasn't
> >> >covered with ice, as was previously thought)
> >> >
> >> >Sweden however, seems to have been _entirely_ covered with ice.
> >> >That is clear whereever a lot of sand and rubble is found.
> >> >
> >> >The question then is what people lived off.
> >> >
> >> >Archaeologists who have tried to popularize their insights,
> >> >have represented the people of those days as a kind of eskimos,
> >> >using harpoons and small boats for hunting and fishing.
> >> >
> >> >So maybe, if there during periods was _a lot of fish_, there
> >> >may also have been a rapid increase in the population,
> >> >as long as they lived near a place here there was a good food-
> >supply.
> >> >But on the whole, I think the main viewpoint is that people in
> >those
> >> >days were much more mobile than they became thousands of years
> >later
> >> >when agriculture was taken up.
> >> >
> >> >But when we consider the question of the arising of
Proto-Germanic
> >> >as a separate language, we were of course already well into the
> >> >agricultural period. A linear kind of reasoning would then
> >> >imply that it was the agriculturalists (=Indo Europeans)
> >> >who became the first Germans, wherever their centre of
> >> >development was. But was it like that? Perhaps linguistics gives
> >> >some hints here; i.e. word counts could
> >> >indicate what kind of society it can have been. But of
> >> >such I only have a memory of someone saying
> >> >that Germanic contains a large percentage of extraneous words.
> >> >
> >> >Perhaps one should also consider that a strong iron age culture
> >> >could only arise where there was a good supply of iron ore.
> >> >Of course, Sweden _was_ such a place, with lots of timber
> >> >as well. (timber for producing charcoal to process the iron)
> >> >
> >> >Keth
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
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> >
> >
> >
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