[gothic-l] Re: The Scandinavian Origin of the Goths

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

thanks for the comment. I find the linguistic evidence for a North 
Jutland origin of the Vandals not convincing, many places can 
problably be identified with a Vend or Vand component. Also, I think 
that some scholars believe that the name Vandals was adopted somewhat 
later after the Vandals had emerged from Celtic Lugian domination in 
Silesia, but  I am not certain about that. 

Der Spiegel is the major weekly magazine in Germany. It may have had 
its problems when rushing too fast into a hot topic (e.g. Hitler 
diaries), but it is one of the most serious and best magazines in 
Europe. As for  the details, I would have to look that up. I still 
have the article and I am sure they are citing and Interviewing some 
of the leading scholars in the field. I find the arguments presented 
there particularly convincing because peoples, cultures, nations etc. 
do normally emerge in relation to another group. Identity is (almost) 
always defined 'against' somebody. In the Harz/Thuringian region a 
proto-Germanic culture would have interacted with neibouring Celts, 
while in culturally, commercially and geographically remote 
Scandinavia at the margins of Europe such a process is practically 
unthinkable. There can be little doubt that the Germanic cultural 
group formed at the interface to the Celts with no clear dividing
line 
. This place almost has to be the described Harz/Thuringian region of 
Germany.

Dirk






--- In gothic-l at egroups.com, bertil <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> The latest scholar is Dane Jes Martens
> with a great number of other scholars.
> The arguments put forward are both
> archaelogical and linguistical (Vend-
> syssel is the nortnmost part of Jutland;
> Vend = Vand).
> 
> What article do you refer to in the
> not very reliable German newsmagazine
> Der Spiegel? Which scholars? What
> new research? 
> 
> short question, which source places 
> the Vandals to North Jutland? I 
> have never heard of any other 
> 'starting' place for the Vandals than 
> the Weichsel/Silesia region, with 
> the name Silesia derived from 
> Silingi a Vandal sub-tribe. 
> 
> > This raises the overall question of origin in general. The latest 
> > research on the Germanic people and culture (summarised in a 
Spiegel 
> > article, exact reference can be supplied) helds that all Germanic 
> > people (i.e. the Germanic culture) originate from the German 
> > Harz mountain/Thuringia region. There are recent discoveries of 
> > proto-Germanic settlements and the famous proto-Germanic 
sacrificial 
> > cave near Osterode. Also, linguistic studies of place names (such 
> > as: 'leben, hude, buettel', etc. for settlements or 'riede, beke' 
etc 
> > for small streams etc.) find the greatest diversity of Germanic 
place 
> > names in that region. Thus there is a greater diversity of 
Germanic 
> > place names in that region than in any other Germanic settlement
> > area. 
> >   From that region the Germanic people spread out also to 
Skandinavia 
> > only to reemerge a few centuries with different tribal names. So 
any 
> > origin theory only provides a snap-shot of a certain group of 
people 
> > that are known historically by a certain name or archeologically 
> > attributed to a certin cultural group at a certain point in time.
> > 
> > Dirk
> > 
> > 
> > --- In gothic-l at egroups.com, Bertil Häggman <mvk575b at t...>
wrote:
> > > As usual David Salo has not the slightest
> > > proof for his beliefs.
> > > 
> > > Prokopius mentions the Goetar, and it is possible
> > > that Ptolemaios mentions this South Scandinavian
> > > people as Goutai, which probably at the time was
> > > pronounced Gotae.
> > > 
> > > In Liber Monstrorum (8th century AD) Huiglacus is
> > > called "Rex Getarum". There was a mix up between
> > > Gotae and Getae in Eastern Europe but there
> > > can be no question of that in relation to the Frisian-
> > > Francian tradition, the Getae (Geats) are the Goetar
> > > (Gautar).
> > > 
> > > So the first of the Goetar to be mentioned is King Hugilaik.
> > > One needs to go to verse 2200 in Beowulf to read about
> > > the historically proven struggle (around 510 AD?) between 
> > > the Svear and the Goetar, which resulted, eventually, much 
> > > later in the Svear gaining the upper hand.
> > > 
> > > In Beowulf there is mention of wars to be expected by the
> > > Geats, and these wars did take place.
> > > 
> > > As has been pointed out numerous times on this list the Goths
> > > themselves believed they originated in Southern
> > > Scandinavia. Why should the Goths believe the
> > > originated from the pagan North when they could easily
> > > claim much more famous ancestry if this was not
> > > the truth?
> > > 
> > > Then there is the fact of the linguistical similarity between
> > > Goetar/Gautar, Gutar (from the island of Gotland), Goths
> > > (lat. Goti).
> > > 
> > > David Salo also seems to believe that geographical distance
> > > is of importance. We know from the history of the Era of
> > > Great Migration that Germanic tribes migrated very long 
distances.
> > > For instance the Vandals from North Jutland ended up in North
> > > Africa and the early migration of the Cimbri from Jutlandic
> > > Himmerland is an example of several Germanic tribes migrating 
> > > over very long distances.
> > > 
> > > Gothically
> > > 
> > > Bertil Haggman
> > > 
> > > 
> > > >     Regardless of what you think the connection between the 
Gautar
> > > > (*Gautos) and Goths (*Gutans) was -- and I myself do not 
believe 
> > that there
> > > > was any closer connection between them than between the Goths 
and 
> > any other
> > > > non-East Germanic grouping -- you certainly cannot identify 
the 
> > Goths with
> > > > "Beowulf's Geats".
> > > >     Beowulf was said, in the poem which has been given his 
name, 
> > to be the
> > > > nephew of Hygelac the Geat.  Hygelac (ON Hugleikr; *Hugilaiks)
> > was 
> > a
> > > > historical figure, whose death is recorded as occurring c. 
521.  
> > The first
> > > > half of Beowulf, Beowulf's killing of Grendel and Grendel's 
> > mother, takes
> > > > place not long before this date, when Hygelac is still king of
> > the 
> > Geats;
> > > > the second half, Beowulf's fight with the dragon, takes place
> > many 
> > decades
> > > > after Hygelac's death.
> > > >     In 521, Amalaric (Amalareiks) was ruling the Visigoths of 
> > Spain, and
> > > > Theodoric (Thiudareiks) ruled the Ostrogoths of Italy.  Both 
> > tribes were
> > > > fully differentiated in cultural, linguistic, and religious 
terms 
> > from
> > > > their Scandinavian cousins (the Goths were Arian Christians; 
the 
> > Geats and
> > > > other Scandinavian tribes were pagan, and would remain so for 
> > centuries).
> > > > They were also, if it is necessary to stress the point, 
separated 
> > by
> > > > hundreds of miles from Scandinavia and surrounded by quite 
> > different
> > > > cultures.  While the Geats at this time were still in a 
"heroic 
> > age" so
> > > > remote from the historical record that it was capable of 
passing 
> > into myth,
> > > > the Goths were busily assimilating the far more ancient 
> > Greco-Roman culture
> > > > into which they had stumbled, and creating artifacts like the 
> > Silver Bible
> > > > which are as artistically and technically superb as they are 
> > linguistically
> > > > significant.  That the Gothic renaissance would be cut short 
in 
> > its prime
> > > > should not obscure the enormous cultural gap that existed 
between 
> > the Goths
> > > > and their supposed Scandinavian progenitors at this time.
> > 
> > 
> > 
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