[gothic-l] Re: The Scandinavian Origin of the Goths

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

short question, which source places the Vandals to North Jutland? I 
have never heard of any other 'starting' place for the Vandals than 
the Weichsel/Silesia region, with the name Silesia derived from 
Silingi a Vandal sub-tribe. 

This raises the overall question of origin in general. The latest 
research on the Germanic people and culture (summarised in a Spiegel 
article, exact reference can be supplied) helds that all Germanic 
people (i.e. the Germanic culture) originate from the German 
Harz mountain/Thuringia region. There are recent discoveries of 
proto-Germanic settlements and the famous proto-Germanic sacrificial 
cave near Osterode. Also, linguistic studies of place names (such 
as: 'leben, hude, buettel', etc. for settlements or 'riede, beke' etc 
for small streams etc.) find the greatest diversity of Germanic place 
names in that region. Thus there is a greater diversity of Germanic 
place names in that region than in any other Germanic settlement
area. 
  From that region the Germanic people spread out also to Skandinavia 
only to reemerge a few centuries with different tribal names. So any 
origin theory only provides a snap-shot of a certain group of people 
that are known historically by a certain name or archeologically 
attributed to a certin cultural group at a certain point in time.

Dirk


--- In gothic-l at egroups.com, Bertil Häggman <mvk575b at t...> wrote:
> As usual David Salo has not the slightest
> proof for his beliefs.
> 
> Prokopius mentions the Goetar, and it is possible
> that Ptolemaios mentions this South Scandinavian
> people as Goutai, which probably at the time was
> pronounced Gotae.
> 
> In Liber Monstrorum (8th century AD) Huiglacus is
> called "Rex Getarum". There was a mix up between
> Gotae and Getae in Eastern Europe but there
> can be no question of that in relation to the Frisian-
> Francian tradition, the Getae (Geats) are the Goetar
> (Gautar).
> 
> So the first of the Goetar to be mentioned is King Hugilaik.
> One needs to go to verse 2200 in Beowulf to read about
> the historically proven struggle (around 510 AD?) between 
> the Svear and the Goetar, which resulted, eventually, much 
> later in the Svear gaining the upper hand.
> 
> In Beowulf there is mention of wars to be expected by the
> Geats, and these wars did take place.
> 
> As has been pointed out numerous times on this list the Goths
> themselves believed they originated in Southern
> Scandinavia. Why should the Goths believe the
> originated from the pagan North when they could easily
> claim much more famous ancestry if this was not
> the truth?
> 
> Then there is the fact of the linguistical similarity between
> Goetar/Gautar, Gutar (from the island of Gotland), Goths
> (lat. Goti).
> 
> David Salo also seems to believe that geographical distance
> is of importance. We know from the history of the Era of
> Great Migration that Germanic tribes migrated very long distances.
> For instance the Vandals from North Jutland ended up in North
> Africa and the early migration of the Cimbri from Jutlandic
> Himmerland is an example of several Germanic tribes migrating 
> over very long distances.
> 
> Gothically
> 
> Bertil Haggman
> 
> 
> >     Regardless of what you think the connection between the Gautar
> > (*Gautos) and Goths (*Gutans) was -- and I myself do not believe 
that there
> > was any closer connection between them than between the Goths and 
any other
> > non-East Germanic grouping -- you certainly cannot identify the 
Goths with
> > "Beowulf's Geats".
> >     Beowulf was said, in the poem which has been given his name, 
to be the
> > nephew of Hygelac the Geat.  Hygelac (ON Hugleikr; *Hugilaiks)
was 
a
> > historical figure, whose death is recorded as occurring c. 521.  
The first
> > half of Beowulf, Beowulf's killing of Grendel and Grendel's 
mother, takes
> > place not long before this date, when Hygelac is still king of
the 
Geats;
> > the second half, Beowulf's fight with the dragon, takes place
many 
decades
> > after Hygelac's death.
> >     In 521, Amalaric (Amalareiks) was ruling the Visigoths of 
Spain, and
> > Theodoric (Thiudareiks) ruled the Ostrogoths of Italy.  Both 
tribes were
> > fully differentiated in cultural, linguistic, and religious terms 
from
> > their Scandinavian cousins (the Goths were Arian Christians; the 
Geats and
> > other Scandinavian tribes were pagan, and would remain so for 
centuries).
> > They were also, if it is necessary to stress the point, separated 
by
> > hundreds of miles from Scandinavia and surrounded by quite 
different
> > cultures.  While the Geats at this time were still in a "heroic 
age" so
> > remote from the historical record that it was capable of passing 
into myth,
> > the Goths were busily assimilating the far more ancient 
Greco-Roman culture
> > into which they had stumbled, and creating artifacts like the 
Silver Bible
> > which are as artistically and technically superb as they are 
linguistically
> > significant.  That the Gothic renaissance would be cut short in 
its prime
> > should not obscure the enormous cultural gap that existed between 
the Goths
> > and their supposed Scandinavian progenitors at this time.


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