[gothic-l] Re: Gothic influence on Baltic Prussians

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "Håkan" <hakan36 at s...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., "Håkan" <hakan36 at s...> wrote:
> > > --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > We had a short discussion about a possible Gothic influence on 
> the 
> > > > later Prussians (Prussen, a Baltic people) before. However, I 
> have 
> > > now 
> > > > received some Russian material about the recently rediscovered 
> > > Prussia 
> > > > Collection in Kaliningrad/Koenigsberg, which contained among 
> > others 
> > > > early Prussian and Gothic artefacts and the text suggests a 
> > certain 
> > > > continuity between the Vistula Gothic Willenberg/Wielbark 
> culture, 
> > > the 
> > > > so called Masovia- Germanic culture of the 6th/7th century and 
> the 
> > > > early Prussian culture. Interestingly, Wolfram suggests in his 
> > book 
> > > > 'The Goths', that parts of the Baltic Galindi joined the 
Goths, 
> > > which 
> > > > is also attested by Gothic personal names like Galindai. 
> > > > 
> > > > The Galindi were a Prussian subtribe like the Samen (not to be 
> > > > confused with the Scandinavian Saami) and Kuren. The Galindi 
> > > settled 
> > > > in the Masovia (Masuren) region were also Willenberg/Wilbark 
is 
> > > > situated and which may provide the link between the Gothic and 
> the 
> > > > Prussian culture. From the 12th century the Prussians were 
> > absorbed 
> > > > into a population of German settlers, but the name Galinden 
> > > remained 
> > > > in use until the 18th century.
> > > > 
> > > > cheers
> > > > Dirk
> > > > 
> > > > For the Masovia-Germanic culture see:
> > > > V. I. Kulakov, "Mogil'niki zapadnoi chasti Mazurskogo 
poozer'ia 
> > > > konca  V-nachala VIII vv. " _Barbaricum_ 1 (1989),148-276; 
> > > >                   
> > > >             -- "Gräber pruzzischer Stammesführer aus 
Warnikam," 
> > > > Eurasia Antiqua_ 3 (1990), 595-628].
> > > 
> > > Hi Dirk!
> > > I just remember that I had a discussion with a guy on 
dejanews.com
> > > (not sure if that´s the adress now). He mentioned the 
jatvingians 
> > and 
> > > also that he thought that vandals came from the baltic verb 
> vendit, 
> > > which meant "watch, guard". He also had a theory that the goths 
> were 
> > > followed by baltic people. It´s possible that he had read 
> Wolfram. 
> > > Hi´s and yours ideas seams very similar.  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Håkan Liljeberg
> > 
> > Hi Haakan,
> > 
> > thanks for the information. I guess that would be a question for 
> > linguists. According to Pohl (Die Germanen) many linguists seem 
> > to regard Baltic as close or closest relative to Germanic so, at 
> least 
> > a common root of the Baltic word 'vendit' and the Vandal name 
> cannot 
> > be ruled out.
> > 
> >  Some contact and influence of Gutones (the forefathers of the 
> Goths) 
> > and Baltic people seems likely and the indication about the 
> Prussian 
> > Galindi, offered by Wolfram seem to support the possibility of a 
> > cultural influence from the Gutones/Goths via the Masovia-Germanic 
> > culture of the 6th-8th century to the Baltic Prussians. It would 
> > perhaps be interesting to see whether the old-Prussian language 
> which 
> > died out in the 17th century (religious texts were still 
translated 
> > into this language in the 16th century) contains east Germanic 
> > borrowings (or perhaps vice versa).
> 
> Hi Dirk!
> It was interesting to hear that some baltic people were under 
> cultural influence from goths and the Masovia-Germanic culture.
> In some you say it´s possible that they have borrowed words from the 
> gothic language ackording to Wolfram. It reminds me that there is 
> some words in latvian that could be interesting seen from this 
> perspective. One latvian word is 'staigat', which means "go, 
travel". 
> If I am not mistaken the gothic word for "go, travel for a shorter 
> distance is 'staigan'. I wouldn´t be surprised if there are other 
> words. But knowing about gotlandic settlements in Grobin at the 
> westcoast in Kurland in the 700th c, it´s possible that some words 
> have come this way. So what do you think about all this?
> 
> Greetings from
> 
> 
> 
> Håkan Liljeberg

Hello Haakan,

yes, those are definitely problems to be tackled by skilled linguists. 
 The Prussian language probably also borrowed words from Germans, who 
came into their settlement areas in very large numbers (actually 
outnumbering them by the 15th century) from the 13th century.  Maybe 
it would be a better strategy to look at a possible borrowing of 
Baltic words into Gothic. Also this linguistic borrowing can be a very 
assymetric process. While the old Prussians borrowed German words, 
hardly any words were adopted into German. So, if Wolfram is correct 
and the Goths dominated the (proto-)Prussian Galindi etc. the 
Prussians may have borrowed words from them, while the influence of 
Baltic on Gothic may have remained small. But these are just guesses. 
In general, a certain Gothic/East-Germanic influence on the Baltic 
Prussians (as suggested by Wolfram and other authors) seems to be very 
plausible as they have occupied the same territories  and it is 
perhaps better portrayed in artefacts as suggested by the Prussia 
collection etc. 

cheers
Dirk




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