[gothic-l] Re: Goths and Bavaria

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., keth at o... wrote:
> Hello Dirk!
> Yes, I was also impressed by Cory's detailed historic knowledge of
> Bavaria. Her post was so solid that I felt there was nothing I could 
add.


Hi Keth,

her? I think Cory is a male name!




> It is odd with really good posts, that they frequently do not get 
answered,
> because they seem so comlete that nobody has anything to add.
> 
> Cory also referred to Brockhaus. However, when I went to look there,
> I found nothing, except the standard dictionary entries that 
Bavarian
> history begins in the sixth century with the "Einmarsch der 
Bajuwaren"
> who are supposed to have come from Bohemia. (any connection with
> the Boii?)  And then also a mention of Agilwulf and the 
"Agilolfingen"
> dynasty.


The following web-site gives a really good overview of Bajuvarian 
archaeology.

http://www.bingo-ev.de/~ks451/archaeol/baiuw-01.htm

Of course, the name Bohemia is derived from the Celtic Boii, who were 
driven out/surplanted/integrated by the Suevian Marcomanni and Quadi 
in the first century AD.



 
> However when I looked under "Bairisch" (writen with "i", whereas 
Bayern
> is written with "y" - any one know why?), the Brockhaus referred to
> "deutsche mundarten" and under that topos I found an interesting map
> of the Germanic dialects. And there I found something that surprised
> me; for it became clear that linguists refer to the language spoken 
in
> Tirol *also as bairisch ! ! !  Now why didn't that come up on the 
list
> as we discussed this before? I even specifically mentioned Süd 
Tirol,
> with Bozen and the Brenner. Now if all that is *also Bairisch 
(linguist-
> ically speaking), then that changes things quite a bit. No wonder I 
> found I could understand Bairisch when I visited there some years 
ago,
> after having spent many months in Tirol. 
> 
> You see, what I thought until now, was that Bairisch referred 
strictly to
> the dialect spoken within the present borders of the Teilstaat 
Bayern.
> But if the dialect spoken in Tirol (Innsbruck!) is also bairisch,
> then that changes things quite a bit from my point of view.



Yes, in historical and linguistic terms Bavaria covers a large area 
from Northern Italy in the south to Franconia in the North, with 
Alamannic languages (Swiss German and Suevian) in the West (+ 
Raeto-Romanic) and Slavic languages in the east. 





> 
> However, what the map *also says (o, erstaunen, erstaunen) is that
> Vienna is *also in the "bairischen mundarten" area. Now, that is
> beginning to sound a bit odd to me. For if there is something that
> is certain, then it is that the "Wienersprache" has a very distinct
> note to it, that distinguishes it from other Austrian dialects.
> And especially "bairisch". More likely is perhaps the attribution
> of Steiermärkisch to bairisch, but even that is a long distance
> from Tirol, and clearly distinguishable, even to my ear. (or maybe
> especially to my ear)


That is right, but Swiss German is also very distinctive from 
Schwaebisch/Suevian, or Alsacian. Yet, they are all Alamannic 
languages.


 
> What should also be discussed when Bayern is discussed, is that its
> present area perhaps only gives a very approximate indication of
> its area in the 6th century. 


Very true. Present day Bavaria includes also non-Bavarian dialects, 
such as Alamannic dialects in the west of Bavaria and Frankish in the 
North of Bavaria. 



cheers,

Dirk





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