[gothic-l] Re: Goths and Bavaria

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

--- In gothic-l at y..., cstrohmier at y... wrote:
> Hi Dirk,
> 	I agree:  The connections between the Goths and the Bavarians
> are a fascinating topic.  Thank you for clarifying how the
Langobards
> fit in:  I had misunderstood what you meant.  (I took you to mean
> that the connections of the Langobardic royal family with the
> Bavarian royal family pertained to the Italian Langobards, and that
> the proposed emigration followed the same pattern.)  An imigration
of
> Langobards from Bohemia seems less problematic than one from Italy,
> especially if it was north of the Danube. (The "devastation"
> and "depopulation" of the region south of the Danube in A.D. 476 by
> Odoacer and this troops would seem to make this theory problematic
> there.)  This would certainly seem to be one more piece of a
> complicated puzzle.  (I'm still pondering the significance of
> Scheuerer's interesting article.)
> 	I was unaware that the modern Bavarians connect the beginning
> of their state in an unbroken line back to Ostrogothic times; it
> seems reasonable, but I wonder how they arrive at the exact date of
> A.D. 520.  Is there some specific historical event underlying this
> date?  In my previous posting, I mentioned two sets of encyclopedia
> dates:  A.D. 489-539 and A.D. 488-520.  (I believe one of these two
> sets of dates came from the Encyclopedia Britannica.)  The earliest
> arrival dates of A.D. 488 and 489 no doubt refer to the beginning of
> Theodoric's invasion of Italy (which he entered through the Alpine
> region), but I wonder what events the encyclopedia writers had in
> mind when they selected A.D. 520 and 539 as the latest possible
> arrival date.  There must be some historical references to the
> Bavarians in these two years which I am unaware of.  The date A.D.
> 520 is especially interesting, since it coincides with the
foundation
> date of the Bavarian state in the northern part of the Ostrogothic
> Kingdom.  It would be interesting to know what these two dates refer
> to.
> Sincerely yours,
> Cory
>


Hi Cory,

I seemed to remember the year 520AD from somewhere, but cannot really
say where I read this. Here are two short histories of the early
Bavarians:

http://www.bayern.de/HDBG/pgkap01.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/6711/austria.html#The Bavarians


I don't know how reliable these texts are, but the second article,
stated that the first duke/king of the Bajuvari was Theodo I
(508-511AD, but said to have been born in 420AD!). Note the many
'Langobardic' names in the Bavarian king-list (Garibald, Grimwald,
Agiulf) and the text also mentiones the  Herulic Prince Fara (died
535AD) as co-founder of the Bavarian ducal house. Fara, Farwald etc.
is also a common name of Langobardic dukes, especially at Spoleto.

The text also states :"After the highest level of protection granted
to the Agilolfing dukes, the next highest was the double weregeld
granted to the five noble families of Huosi, Drozza, Fagana,
Hahilinga, and Anniona - probably the descendants of kings of seperate
lesser tribes incorporated within the Bavarian nation..."






> P.S.
> 	I need to make two clarifications.  In my last posting, I
> included a quote about the Ostrogoths "Teutonizing" the Austrian
> Tyrol.  The word "Teutonizing"  has several possible meanings:  The
> author seems to have left the meaning deliberately ambiguous.  I
take
> it to mean that the area was unpopulated, and that it
> became "Teutonized" through settlement of Ostrogoths in the area.



I am not sure, but the Tyrol area was where the Celtic (barely
Romanised) Brennones lived. Maybe, it was these people in South Tyrol
(now Italy) who were 'teutonised'.




In
> another previous posting, I mentioned that some pieces of Old and
> Middle High German literature which show a curious mixing of  Old
> Saxon and Old and Middle High German influences may point to an
> explanation of the West and North Germanic features in Southern
> German; two more examples of this would be:  "Das Hildebrandslied"
> (which also shows Langobardic influences) and the so-called "Low"
> German "Der Heliand".  I believe there are also smaller fragments
> such as prayers which also reflect both Saxon and High German
> influences.  No doubt there are more examples.


My understanding was that the Hildebrandslied was written down by an
Old Saxon speaker based on a Bavarian 'original'. I think it is
probable that the material goes back to Ostrogothic tales of the
5th/6th century, was taken up by the Langobards in Italy (the name
ending -brand/prant was popular among the Bavarian dynasty of
Langobardic kings (Ansprant, Hildeprant, Luitprant) and then passed on
to the Bavarians.

cheers,
Dirk



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