[gothic-l] Re: Goths and Bavaria

[dirk at SMRA.CO.UK]

Hi Cory and Keth

I found this quote about Bavarian:

Man unterscheidet innerhalb der bairische Sprache zwischen drei 
Dialektgruppen: Nordbairisch wird in der Oberpfalz und im Donauraum 
gesprochen, Mittelbairisch in Ober- und Niederbayern sowie im größten 
Teil von Österreich, Südbairisch in Tirol und südlich der Ostalpen. 
Dazu kommen einige Sprachinseln in Oberitalien, wo archaische 
bairische Dialekte noch heute in Gebrauch sind.

Thus, there are also isolated areas in upper Italy were 
archaic variants of Bavarian are still spoken. The southern-most 
German language-area is the Zimbric/Cimbric language spoken only in 
one villages near Trient/Verona. Cimbric is also related to Bavarian.

cheers,
Dirk





--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., cstrohmier at y... wrote:
> > Hi Dirk,
> > 	I agree:  The connections between the Goths and the Bavarians 
> > are a fascinating topic.  Thank you for clarifying how the 
> Langobards 
> > fit in:  I had misunderstood what you meant.  (I took you to mean 
> > that the connections of the Langobardic royal family with the 
> > Bavarian royal family pertained to the Italian Langobards, and 
that 
> > the proposed emigration followed the same pattern.)  An imigration 
> of 
> > Langobards from Bohemia seems less problematic than one from 
Italy, 
> > especially if it was north of the Danube. (The "devastation" 
> > and "depopulation" of the region south of the Danube in A.D. 476 
by 
> > Odoacer and this troops would seem to make this theory problematic 
> > there.)  This would certainly seem to be one more piece of a 
> > complicated puzzle.  (I'm still pondering the significance of 
> > Scheuerer's interesting article.)
> > 	I was unaware that the modern Bavarians connect the beginning 
> > of their state in an unbroken line back to Ostrogothic times; it 
> > seems reasonable, but I wonder how they arrive at the exact date 
of 
> > A.D. 520.  Is there some specific historical event underlying this 
> > date?  In my previous posting, I mentioned two sets of 
encyclopedia 
> > dates:  A.D. 489-539 and A.D. 488-520.  (I believe one of these 
two 
> > sets of dates came from the Encyclopedia Britannica.)  The 
earliest 
> > arrival dates of A.D. 488 and 489 no doubt refer to the beginning 
of 
> > Theodoric's invasion of Italy (which he entered through the Alpine 
> > region), but I wonder what events the encyclopedia writers had in 
> > mind when they selected A.D. 520 and 539 as the latest possible 
> > arrival date.  There must be some historical references to the 
> > Bavarians in these two years which I am unaware of.  The date A.D. 
> > 520 is especially interesting, since it coincides with the 
> foundation 
> > date of the Bavarian state in the northern part of the Ostrogothic 
> > Kingdom.  It would be interesting to know what these two dates 
refer 
> > to.
> > Sincerely yours,
> > Cory
> > 
> 
> 
> Hi Cory,
> 
> I seemed to remember the year 520AD from somewhere, but cannot 
really 
> say where I read this. Here are two short histories of the early 
> Bavarians:
> 
> http://www.bayern.de/HDBG/pgkap01.htm
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/6711/austria.html#The 
Bavarians
> 
> 
> I don't know how reliable these texts are, but the second article, 
> stated that the first duke/king of the Bajuvari was Theodo I 
> (508-511AD, but said to have been born in 420AD!). Note the many 
> 'Langobardic' names in the Bavarian king-list (Garibald, Grimwald, 
> Agiulf) and the text also mentiones the  Herulic Prince Fara (died 
> 535AD) as co-founder of the Bavarian ducal house. Fara, Farwald etc. 
> is also a common name of Langobardic dukes, especially at Spoleto.
> 
> The text also states :"After the highest level of protection granted 
> to the Agilolfing dukes, the next highest was the double weregeld 
> granted to the five noble families of Huosi, Drozza, Fagana, 
> Hahilinga, and Anniona - probably the descendants of kings of 
seperate 
> lesser tribes incorporated within the Bavarian nation..."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > P.S.
> > 	I need to make two clarifications.  In my last posting, I 
> > included a quote about the Ostrogoths "Teutonizing" the Austrian 
> > Tyrol.  The word "Teutonizing"  has several possible meanings:  
The 
> > author seems to have left the meaning deliberately ambiguous.  I 
> take 
> > it to mean that the area was unpopulated, and that it 
> > became "Teutonized" through settlement of Ostrogoths in the area.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not sure, but the Tyrol area was where the Celtic (barely 
> Romanised) Brennones lived. Maybe, it was these people in South 
Tyrol 
> (now Italy) who were 'teutonised'.
> 
> 
> 
>   
> In 
> > another previous posting, I mentioned that some pieces of Old and 
> > Middle High German literature which show a curious mixing of  Old 
> > Saxon and Old and Middle High German influences may point to an 
> > explanation of the West and North Germanic features in Southern 
> > German; two more examples of this would be:  "Das Hildebrandslied" 
> > (which also shows Langobardic influences) and the so-called "Low" 
> > German "Der Heliand".  I believe there are also smaller fragments 
> > such as prayers which also reflect both Saxon and High German 
> > influences.  No doubt there are more examples.
> 
> 
> My understanding was that the Hildebrandslied was written down by an 
> Old Saxon speaker based on a Bavarian 'original'. I think it is 
> probable that the material goes back to Ostrogothic tales of the 
> 5th/6th century, was taken up by the Langobards in Italy (the name 
> ending -brand/prant was popular among the Bavarian dynasty of 
> Langobardic kings (Ansprant, Hildeprant, Luitprant) and then passed 
on 
> to the Bavarians. 
> 
> cheers,
> Dirk


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