[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Bavarians and Heruls

[Troels Brandt]

Hi Dirk

In this letter I will try to answer or comment your mails 4851, 4854,
4855, 4856 and 4857.

First of all I am not driven by the local patriotism eagerly
discussed between you and some Scandinavian members here and at
Germanic list. As a matter of fact the Danish part of my work has
primarily become an appendix to Swedish history - even though I do
not want to support them as they always won in football, when I was a
boy. I don't mind if some members of the royal Herulian family
settled around Pannonia instead of migrating to Scandinavia as you
describe below. Actually you later found my example regarding the
Brents in 560 (4856) showing the opposite and I also mentioned
Silinga, so I expect you have already given up this claim.

The purpose behind my question was only to find the primary source
for the genealogy, which I am interested to know, as I have read
about this Fara several times without getting his background
confirmed. If an important part of the male dynasty lived in Bavaria
why did the Illyrian Heruls send their deputies all the way to
Scandinavia to find a candidate of royal blood? I could be afraid
that the quality of this Bavarian geneology is similar to the
geneologies in the Norse "literature".

Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is common
sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
information we have about the Heruls. I agree that the Heruls split
up and I agree that at least one daughter of Roduulf was married into
another dynasty in Southern Europe, while I suspect Fara more likely
to be the son of such a daughter than a son of Roduulf - but this is
still guesswork.

I remember your referal to the Donaukurier about Phalheim. Where do I
find the discussions about Menghin's theory? Did Fara's decendants
rule in Phalheim?

The idea about the Pannonian Heruls as a warrior band (sometimes even
called homosexuals) is by some scholars used as academical training -
this is the best way I can explain the view of these scholars earlier
discussed at this list in February 2001. However Procopius used
several pages to describe the Heruls as a people. How could a
warriorband exist as a people for 250 years without children, women
and old people - and how could they keep their own religion? Read my
note 63 as you read note 32.

We do not know if the Roduulf arriving to the court of Theodorich was
a Herul as the text of Jordanes is unclear about this. At least he
was not identical to the king in Pannonia.

We do not know how many the Pannonian Heruls and later the Illyrian
Heruls were, as the figures of some mercenaries do not tell us
anything but a minimum. This topic was discussed at Gothic-l around
Christmas 1999. As handling of figures is a part of my profession I
do not play magician with estimated average figures as some scholars
do. Our most reliable information is given by Procopius describing
the Pannonian Heruls as superior in number and power subduing all
their neighbours - including the Lombards! His information is
confirmed by the role they played under Odoacer, Theodorich and
Justinian. If the royal family had no supporters there was no reason
to ask for a king from this family in Thule - but nevertheless the
Illyrian Heruls asked for this king against the will of Justinian.
Still 35 years later the deputies found many of royal blood in Thule,
and the dispensable Datius and his brother were followed to Illyria
by 200 young warriors, who must also have been dispensable. The last
contemporary information from Procopius alone indicates that you
should count them in more than hundreds - but the whole story about
the split, the settlement in Thule and the search for a new king
makes only sense if the group around this accepted royal family
covered a substantial part of the Heruls. We have earlier discussed
Procopius as a reliable source (a.e. G-L 3374/3382).

I have to search in my old computer to find the source for the king
of the Brents (4857). As he ruled later than the period I
investigated, I did not pay him much attention, and I first noticed
the connection with the Bavarians in your mail last week.

Concerning our earlier mails about Harlingen a member from Germanic
List has told, that the name in Netherland probably derive from a
Frisian word and not from Heruls. This does not change the
explanation of the Ostfrisian Harlinger Land, which I am still trying
to check.

Just a joke! Are you aware that you until now have shown that the
Herulian dynasty placed 3 kings in Germany or its southern
neighbours, which might confirm some similarity with Snorre's
dispised Edda-"literature"?

Troels


--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> > Hi Dirk
> >
> > I remember you last year joined a discussion, where an Austrian
> > webbsite with Fara was mentioned, but following your policy
> regarding
> > Jordanes, Paulus Diaconus and the Norse "literature", how about
> proof
> > and sources regarding the geneology below?
>
>
>
>
>
> Hi Troels,
>
> the Agilofing genealogy can be found in many secondary sources. Not
> always identical or complete, but you will find bits of it in the
> standard literature on the subject such as:
>
> Hartung, Wolfgang "Sueddeutschland in der fruhen Merowingerzeit.
> Studien zu Gesellschaft, Herrschaft, Stammesbildung bei Alamannen
und
> Bajuwaren,"  Wiesbaden 1983
>
> some notes on the duke Fara are also  in
>
> Eugen Ewig, "Die Merovinger und das Frankenreich",
>
> For a genealogy that is accessible on the internet, and which also
has
>  virtually all of the family-tree presented below, see the 'British
> Royal Geneologies' at:
>
> http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~bct/public/genealogy/royal/#Barbarian
>
>
> I know that you don't like the idea that members of the Herulic
royal
> house could have remained in the area, as you are normally keen to
> argue that they migrated to Scandinavia. I suppose the possibly
that
> some of them stayed behind does not excluded the possibility that
> others moved to Scandinavia.
>
> Looking at the 'usual' pattern when a people is defeated, it
appears
> to be that more often than not the defeated elite gets absorbed
into
> the new elites. This seems to hold true even for one-time mortal
> enemies. For the victors it is probably good policy to pacify an
area
> with the help of the old elites, while at the same time removing
the
> thread of the old leaders becoming a 'rallying point' for
resistance.
> What is even more important, there were often pre-existing family
> links between the ruling elites of the different tribes, that would
> have facilitated the integration of the defeated elite. In fact,
often
> the victorious king sought to underscore the legitimacy of his rule
by
> marrying a princess or queen of the defeated people. (The Langobard
> Wacho married a Gepidic women and later a Herulic princess with the
> name Silinga. There daughters were married off to Frankish kings at
> Cologne (Wisigarda's grave under the Cathedral of Cologne))
>
> For the defeated elite it must be the most daunting and desperate
> thought to give up all pre-existing dynastic links and claims that
> could support a continued power base in the area. What should also
not
> be underestimated is that many of the 'barbarian leaders' were
> accustomed to a life-style in Roman villas in a fairly moderate
> climate. To abandon all this consciously cannot have been the first
> and preferred choice. Thus, if any of the Herulic princes could
> establish himself in the local areas, with the help of powerful
> relatives, preferably at a former Roman centre like Augsburg,
Passau
> or Wuerzburg he would probably have preferred this to the
uncertainty
> of a life in a remote northern country, which literally must have
> seem like the end of the world to them. But again, some of them may
> not have been able to establish themselves locally, an the trek to
> Scandinavia was the only option for them.
>
> What do you estimate how many Heruls moved to Scandinavia? Members
of
> the royal familiy with a couple of hundred retainers? Or a people
of
> several thousands or even tens of thousands? My view is that the
> Heruls in Pannonia consisted in fact only of a warrior elite,
without
> any large ethnical Herulic people. Thus, 'their people' would have
> been mainly local Danube Suevi, romanised Celts etc, who are known
to
> have formed a large part of the population in these areas.
>
> cheers,
>
> Dirk
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Is it easy to separate archaeological finds from Bavarians and
> > Alamanni?
> >
> > Troels
> >
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Cory and Keth,
> > >
> > > I suppose one aspect that reflects the ethnic and historic
> > influences
> > > on the Bajuvarii quite well is the geneology of the Bavarian
ducal
> > > house, the Agilofings.
> > >
> > > The first duke of all Bavaria is Garibald I. His family tree
looks
> > > something like this:
> > >
> > >
> > > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
> > >
> > > son:
> > > Fara, Herulic Prince, and Bavarian duke, died 535AD
> > >
> > > first son of Fara:
> > > 1. Sinduald, Herulic Prince, died 565 AD
> > > son of Sinduald: TASSILO I, Duke of Bavaria
> > >
> > > second son of Fara:
> > > 2. GARIBALD, Bavarian duke
> > > married Wulderade, Langobardic Princess
> > >
> > > children of Garibald:
> > > 1. Theudeline (married Authari and later Agiulf, Langobardic
> Kings)
> > > 2. Gundoald (Langobardic Duke of Asti, and father of Aripert I)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There is also another Bavarian duke with the name Fara who died
in
> > > 641AD. His father was Chrodoald, a Langobardic duke and his son
> was
> > > Theodo II, duke of Bavaria.
> > >
> > >
> > > According to this geneology, the Bavarian ducal house of the
> > > Agilofings is an extention of the Herulic royal house and the
> > > Langobardic royal house. Apart from demonstrating the
complicated
> > > dynastic relationships, it also seems to show the fate of (at
> least
> > a
> > > part) of the royal house of the Heruls.
> > >
> > >
> > > cheers,
> > >
> > > Dirk


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