[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Bavarians and Heruls

Tue Aug 7 09:54:26 UTC 2001

--- In gothic-l at y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
> Hi Dirk
>
> In this letter I will try to answer or comment your mails 4851,
4854,
> 4855, 4856 and 4857.
>
> First of all I am not driven by the local patriotism eagerly
> discussed between you and some Scandinavian members here and at
> Germanic list. As a matter of fact the Danish part of my work has
> primarily become an appendix to Swedish history - even though I do
> not want to support them as they always won in football, when I was
a
> boy. I don't mind if some members of the royal Herulian family
> settled around Pannonia instead of migrating to Scandinavia as you
> describe below. Actually you later found my example regarding the
> Brents in 560 (4856) showing the opposite and I also mentioned
> Silinga, so I expect you have already given up this claim.
>

Hi Troels,

sorry if I threw you in the wrong pot, but experience taught me that
some people are eager to prove only one thing, namely that everything
Germanic is Scandinavian, migrated from Scandinavia or back to
Scandinavia. This does not even need to originate from 'bad'
intentions, but since there is usually little opposition to these
views from others, I seemed to end up pointing to the significance of
other areas and peoples as well.

In general, I stress the complete insignificance of modern national
borders for the study of Germanic history. However, I must admit the
fact that you studied the subject in-depth, but still made not the
slightes mentioning of the Agilofing-dynasty made me slightly wary,
but that is resolved now :)

> The purpose behind my question was only to find the primary source
> for the genealogy, which I am interested to know, as I have read
> about this Fara several times without getting his background
> confirmed.

There are at least two Bavarian dukes with the name Fara. Both were
'only' dukes of parts of Bavaria or dukes 'in' Bavaria as opposed to
'of' Bavaria. At least that is my understanding.

If an important part of the male dynasty lived in Bavaria
> why did the Illyrian Heruls send their deputies all the way to
> Scandinavia to find a candidate of royal blood? I could be afraid
> that the quality of this Bavarian geneology is similar to the
> geneologies in the Norse "literature".

The Agilofing genealogy is not derived from legends or sagas, but at
any rate, the exact relationships among the dukes is not undisputed.
I shall try to find out the source. Why the Illyrian Heruls send for a
new king from Thule when there were likely several members of the
Herulic dynasty around in close proximity, I don't know. But it is one
of these reports that I personally find improbable anyway, but I know
you don't agree, which is fine.

> Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is common
> sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
> information we have about the Heruls.

But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
receives too little attention when people try to re-construct history
on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources. Actual 'use' of
this common sense could have directed you much earlier to people like
Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
behaviour. In  general, it is this common sense (lets not call it
theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the best
leads if sources are scarce.

I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else around
it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the reliability and
intentions of the authors of the sources.

> I agree that the Heruls split
> up and I agree that at least one daughter of Roduulf was married
into
> another dynasty in Southern Europe, while I suspect Fara more likely
> to be the son of such a daughter than a son of Roduulf - but this is
> still guesswork.

>
> I remember your referal to the Donaukurier about Phalheim. Where do
I
> find the discussions about Menghin's theory? Did Fara's decendants
> rule in Phalheim?

I am not aware that any particular area is assigned to Fara, but that
could be my ignorance. Fara II ruled in North Bavaria around Wuerzburg
as far as I know. According to the genealogy Fara I decendents became
dukes of all Bavaria in the form of Garibald I and Sindualt's son
Tassilo. I have given the source of Menghin's reattribution of the
Phalheim warrior's to the Alamanni somewhere on this list, but shall
try to dig it up again.

>
> The idea about the Pannonian Heruls as a warrior band (sometimes
even
> called homosexuals) is by some scholars used as academical training
-
> this is the best way I can explain the view of these scholars
earlier
> discussed at this list in February 2001. However Procopius used
> several pages to describe the Heruls as a people. How could a
> warriorband exist as a people for 250 years without children, women
> and old people - and how could they keep their own religion?

I did not argue that they were only a warrior band. I said that in
Pannonia it is possible that they formed only a thin elite of ruling
families, because the bulk of the population were likly Danube Suevi,
Roman provincials, romanised Celts etc.

There is an intersting case of Roman troops along the Hadrians wall in
Britain. Initially the soldiers came from all-over the empire. After a
while they integrated in the local population and service along the
Hadrian's wall became 'hereditary' among these families. Thus, they
formed a self-perpetuating military unit that over time and with the
decline of Roman rule became warrior bands/tribes with
chieftain-families originating from former army service placing there
head-quarters in dis-used Roman fortresses.

The Heruls are often mentioned in their role as Roman mercenaries.
Apparently, service in or along side the Roman army had become a
lucrative and attractive 'occupation' for many Germanic people. It is
possible that the Herul tribe originated from tribal warrior bands
that had formed a symbiotic relationship with the Roman army.

Read my
> note 63 as you read note 32.
>
> We do not know if the Roduulf arriving to the court of Theodorich
was
> a Herul as the text of Jordanes is unclear about this. At least he
> was not identical to the king in Pannonia.
>
> We do not know how many the Pannonian Heruls and later the Illyrian
> Heruls were, as the figures of some mercenaries do not tell us
> anything but a minimum. This topic was discussed at Gothic-l around
> Christmas 1999. As handling of figures is a part of my profession I
> do not play magician with estimated average figures as some scholars
> do. Our most reliable information is given by Procopius describing
> the Pannonian Heruls as superior in number and power subduing all
> their neighbours - including the Lombards!

There are countless cases in history where a small minority ruled over
a large majority. I was not asking you to perform number-magic, just
your opinion as to the Herul migration to Scandinavia should be seen
as a mass-migration of tens of thousands of people (i.e. a real
people) or just a royal family with a couple of hundred retainers?

His information is
> confirmed by the role they played under Odoacer, Theodorich and
> Justinian. If the royal family had no supporters there was no reason
> to ask for a king from this family in Thule - but nevertheless the
> Illyrian Heruls asked for this king against the will of Justinian.
> Still 35 years later the deputies found many of royal blood in
Thule,
> and the dispensable Datius and his brother were followed to Illyria
> by 200 young warriors, who must also have been dispensable. The last
> contemporary information from Procopius alone indicates that you
> should count them in more than hundreds - but the whole story about
> the split, the settlement in Thule and the search for a new king
> makes only sense if the group around this accepted royal family
> covered a substantial part of the Heruls. We have earlier discussed
> Procopius as a reliable source (a.e. G-L 3374/3382).

In my view only a thorough philological analysis can reveal the
reliability of Procopius.

> I have to search in my old computer to find the source for the king
> of the Brents (4857). As he ruled later than the period I
> investigated, I did not pay him much attention, and I first noticed
> the connection with the Bavarians in your mail last week.

That would really be of interest to me. These Brennones or Brents were
a barely romanised Celtic people in Tyrol that was renowned for its
'wildness' even in the sevenths and eights century.

>
> Just a joke! Are you aware that you until now have shown that the
> Herulian dynasty placed 3 kings in Germany or its southern
> neighbours, which might confirm some similarity with Snorre's
> dispised Edda-"literature"?

What makes you think that I dispise Edda-literature? This could not be
 further from the truth. I only caution against its unreserved use as
historical source.

cheers,

Dirk

------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
Small business owners...
Tell us what you think!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>.

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/