[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Bavarians and Heruls

[Troels Brandt]

Hi Dirk

--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt at p...> wrote:
>
.........
> In general, I stress the complete insignificance of modern national
> borders for the study of Germanic history.

I am afraid the education in history and archaeology is dependent of
which country you got your education in - even among professionals
(10 years ago archaeology more than history). There will always be a
local element in the education and missing elements from other
countries causing different points of view. Neither you or I are
exceptions.

> However, I must admit the
> fact that you studied the subject in-depth, but still made not the
> slightes mentioning of the Agilofing-dynasty made me slightly wary,
> but that is resolved now :)


I did not trust this information, and I don't regard it as important,
that a person is mentioned in a geneology as a Herulian prince. We do
not know how to use this information which could just be due to
marriage or exile. My website does not pretend to contain all
information about the Heruls.


> I shall try to find out the source. Why the Illyrian Heruls send
for a
> new king from Thule when there were likely several members of the
> Herulic dynasty around in close proximity, I don't know. But it is
one
> of these reports that I personally find improbable anyway, but I
know
> you don't agree, which is fine.
>

Exactly this event (Datius/Suartuas) has been discussed before
between Andreas, you and me
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/3374
- and I still prefer to read Procopius for Goffart.

........
> > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is
common
> > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
> > information we have about the Heruls.
>
>
> But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
> receives too little attention when people try to re-construct
history
> on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources. Actual 'use'
of
> this common sense could have directed you much earlier to people
like
> Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
> behaviour. In  general, it is this common sense (lets not call it
> theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the best
> leads if sources are scarce.
>
> I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
> events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else
around
> it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the reliability
and
> intentions of the authors of the sources.
>

I read about Fara a year ago at a website. If we construct the
history based on our expectations according to common sense instead
of using the sources we have - even when the result is unexpected - I
think we mix sources and testing tools.

.......
>  I have given the source of Menghin's reattribution of the
> Phalheim warrior's to the Alamanni somewhere on this list, but
shall
> try to dig it up again.


I have tried to search for "Phalheim", but found only one message at
Germanic List.

........
> I did not argue that they were only a warrior band. I said that in
> Pannonia it is possible that they formed only a thin elite of
ruling
> families, because the bulk of the population were likly Danube
Suevi,
> Roman provincials, romanised Celts etc.


Actually their kingdom was supposed to be north of Danube in Moravia,
Wiener Viertel and Marchfeld.


> There is an intersting case of Roman troops along the Hadrians wall
in
> Britain. Initially the soldiers came from all-over the empire.
After a
> while they integrated in the local population and service along the
> Hadrian's wall became 'hereditary' among these families. Thus, they
> formed a self-perpetuating military unit that over time and with
the
> decline of Roman rule became warrior bands/tribes with
> chieftain-families originating from former army service placing
there
> head-quarters in dis-used Roman fortresses.
>
> The Heruls are often mentioned in their role as Roman mercenaries.
> Apparently, service in or along side the Roman army had become a
> lucrative and attractive 'occupation' for many Germanic people. It
is
> possible that the Herul tribe originated from tribal warrior bands
> that had formed a symbiotic relationship with the Roman army.


We already heard about the Heruls in the 3rd century at the Black Sea
and in Frisia. The first mercenaries were mentioned in the 4th
century (probably Western Heruls) while the Eastern Heruls probably
followed the Huns to Pannonia as the Ostrogoths. However it is
natural that the mercenaries were mentioned more often than the
people behind, which did not interest the Roman writers.

>
> There are countless cases in history where a small minority ruled
over
> a large majority.


Probably, but Procopius wrote " .. superior in number ..".


> I was not asking you to perform number-magic, just
> your opinion as to the Herul migration to Scandinavia should be
seen
> as a mass-migration of tens of thousands of people (i.e. a real
> people) or just a royal family with a couple of hundred retainers?


I answered this below. If you want to hear my guess, I think they
formed a small but strong army (1000-5000 warriors with family)
followed by people they met on their way, and I expect they only
formed a superior class in Scandinavia. This sounds nearly like your
own theory about Pannonia, mentioned above - but the explanation is
only a guess.

.......
>
> His information is
> > confirmed by the role they played under Odoacer, Theodorich and
> > Justinian. If the royal family had no supporters there was no
reason
> > to ask for a king from this family in Thule - but nevertheless
the
> > Illyrian Heruls asked for this king against the will of
Justinian.
> > Still 35 years later the deputies found many of royal blood in
> Thule,
> > and the dispensable Datius and his brother were followed to
Illyria
> > by 200 young warriors, who must also have been dispensable. The
last
> > contemporary information from Procopius alone indicates that you
> > should count them in more than hundreds - but the whole story
about
> > the split, the settlement in Thule and the search for a new king
> > makes only sense if the group around this accepted royal family
> > covered a substantial part of the Heruls. We have earlier
discussed
> > Procopius as a reliable source (a.e. G-L 3374/3382).

>
> In my view only a thorough philological analysis can reveal the
> reliability of Procopius.


Maybe this is your view, but then I would not even mention Fara if I
were you.

........
> >
> > Just a joke! Are you aware that you until now have shown that the
> > Herulian dynasty placed 3 kings in Germany or its southern
> > neighbours, which might confirm some similarity with Snorre's
> > dispised Edda-"literature"?
>
>
> What makes you think that I dispise Edda-literature? This could not
be
>  further from the truth. I only caution against its unreserved use
as
> historical source.
>

I did not necessarily refer to you.

Kindly regards
Troels


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