Ostrogoths [gothic-l] The old Border between Norway and Sweden.

[keth at ONLINE.NO]

Esteemed Bertil and List Members !

I agree that Ostro- sounds very akin to Austr- or "East-".
This reading of course receives support by the fact that during
one important period there were two major groups of Goths in
Southern Europe, who called themselves Ostrogoths and Visigoths.
The further fact that the OStrogoths settled (for a while) in
Italy, and the Visigoths (more permanently) in Spain, also
suggests the reading Ostro = East and Visi = West.

However, I once read, right now I have forgotten where, that it
probably wasn't so simple as the movements of these two groups 
might suggest, and that "Ostro" probably didn't mean "East"
after all. Thus Lehmann, in his Gothic Etymological Dictionary
supports this view, that I had already seen elsewhere in the
literature on the subject. In fact, Professor Lehmann writes:

Ostro- = of disputed etymology. It probably doesn't mean East.

Assuming, therefore the general applicability of the above
arguments, it follows that when we read (in Jordanes description
of Scandinavia) that a nation called "Ostrogothi" lived there,
then we cannot assume a relationship between name (Ostro-)
and geographical location (East). Thus it is perfectly
possible that the Scandinavian "Ostrogothae" of the 6th
century or earlier (before 551, the date when Jordanes' Getica
was finished) did not live "East" in any geographical sense.
The possibility of a non-Eastern location is further substantiated
by the fact that Jordanes' enumeration of Scandinavian nations
follows a system of a sequential order, whose nature is geograpic.
Thus, whenever he mentions several nations in the same sentence,
we often find confirmed, by comparing with later sources, that
Jordanes' sequential order of enumeration reflects real geographic
locations in their proper sequential order; which is, by the
way, entirely within the bounds of reason, nay, even most 
probable, when we realize that it was an important part of 
the Roman educational system, to place much emphasis on how
knowledge and summaries of such had to be memorized and
mentioned in certain almost formulaic sequences, whose purpose
it was to facilitate the ready mental availability of such
knowledge. See for example the textbook that Cicero wrote on
rhetoric, where such systems of memorisation are thoroughly
explained.

Thus when Jordanes, Getica § 23, mentions in a single sentence
that (cf. Nordin) "Utanför dessa bor Ostrogothae, Raumaricii, Aeragna-
ricii och de blida Finni, som är mer saktmodiga än alla andra
innbyggare i Scandza." then that certainly is a good indication
of the geographic proximity of these people. When Nordin
further points out that "Aeragnaricii" most likely is a corruption
of "ac Ragnaricii" (= och innvånarane i Ranriki (i Bohuslän)),
then it is indeed also easy to identify "Raumariki" with today's
Romerike, which is located just North of Oslo. Thus, by the
application of these principles, one must of necessity place
Jordanes' "Ostrogothae" somewhere in the proximity of the
Oslo-Bohuslän area, which is admittedly a large area (distance
Oslo - Gautelfr mouth = ca. 200 km.), but compared to the
total size of all of Scandinavia, nevertheless limits the
geographic area where Jordanes' Ostrogotha may have lived.

If we further pay attention to his sequential order:
Ostrogothae - Raumaricii - Ragnaricii - Finni, then
we obtain a location closer to Romerike than to Götaland.
But such reasoning then also places the "Finni" (=Saami)
somwhere near Skåne, which is of course possible, but
somwhat less likely. (because one generally assumes that
the Saami live North of a certain debatable line in 
Scandinavia).
 


>What Jordens meant in the 6th century AD when he
>wrote Ostrogoths in _Getica_ is of course 
>hard to know. In Sweden it is simply translated into
>oestgoetar (on the east coast) although most of the peoples Jordanes
>mentions on Scandza are likely on the west coast.
>The Gautigoth of Jordanes are thus probably "the Goths on
>Gautelfr". But to link the Ostrogoti with the west coast
>seems not correct as Jordanes points to the east by
>using Ostro-. 

>Esteemed listmembers and Keth,
>
>Although the question of the name of the vikings
>is related to Gothic indirectly it should possibly
>be mentioned that the origin of the word is not
>finally solved. Of course the first vikings
>may have come from Viken, but the pre-Vikings
>most likely did not. The most common explanation
>is also vik (bay).
>
>If I remember the first viking attacks was by 
>Danish vikings on the English east-coast
>so it seems probable that the first Viking era
>vikings came from the Danish kingdom.

The Irish annals called the Vikings something
like "Hruothi" which indicates Old Norse "Hordar".
(=Hardanger area), which is also the most likely,
since Norway is much closer to Scotland and hence
Ireland, than Denmark is.

I have also read in other places that the first 
Vikings were from Hordaland. (meaning that Viken
is out - although Viken may also have been Danish
at that time. PLease also take a look at Beowulf and see how
many different kinds of "Danes" he enumerates.)



>
>It should also be noted that the area around
>Gautelfr/Goetaelv was strategically very
>important during the 16th and 17th centuries.
>Denmark controlled the areas north and south 
>of Goetaalv. Thus it was of great importance
>for Sweden to capture the area around the
>river. The conquest of these areas was combined
>with a total disaster for the Danish, when Sweden's
>King Charles X Gustavus made an unexpected 
>march with the army from Poland along the
>northern German coast and reached Zealand and
>Copenhagen by crossing the ice between the Danish
>islands. The siege of Copenhagen failed but the
>Danes were forced to hand over Scania, Halland and 
>Bohuslaen and some other territories to Sweden in
>1658. So it was not just a casual failure by the Danes
>but a general breakdown.
>
I read that the Danish nobles preferred masquarade balls
at the Danish castles, even while the war was raging.

(though the Danes might protest this. I don't know.
anybody want to break a lance for the Danish nobles
of the baroque period?)

(on the condition that we remain friends! )

Best regards
Keth



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