Ostrogoths [gothic-l] The old Border between Norway and Sweden.

[Tore Gannholm]

Reply to Bertil and Keth,
You both refer to translations (Nordin, Joergen Weibull and Hoops 2nd ed).
These translations can of course be useful when we try to intepret what
Jordanes writes. However it is only these authors view in their environment
that is mirrored. We can only look at the original text and try to
understand it. If we can't combine Jordanes texts with other sources we
haven't got a clue which people Jordanes describes.
Therefore we must look at other sources, archaeological discoveries and so
on. This is like in a court case. If the evidence is strong the picture
that appears might be close to what really is the case.
I only use translations to help me understand the original text and fit it
into  a reality with archaelological findings.
Tore


>Esteemed Bertil and List Members !
>
>I agree that Ostro- sounds very akin to Austr- or "East-".
>This reading of course receives support by the fact that during
>one important period there were two major groups of Goths in
>Southern Europe, who called themselves Ostrogoths and Visigoths.
>The further fact that the OStrogoths settled (for a while) in
>Italy, and the Visigoths (more permanently) in Spain, also
>suggests the reading Ostro = East and Visi = West.
>
>However, I once read, right now I have forgotten where, that it
>probably wasn't so simple as the movements of these two groups
>might suggest, and that "Ostro" probably didn't mean "East"
>after all. Thus Lehmann, in his Gothic Etymological Dictionary
>supports this view, that I had already seen elsewhere in the
>literature on the subject. In fact, Professor Lehmann writes:
>
>Ostro- = of disputed etymology. It probably doesn't mean East.
>
>Assuming, therefore the general applicability of the above
>arguments, it follows that when we read (in Jordanes description
>of Scandinavia) that a nation called "Ostrogothi" lived there,
>then we cannot assume a relationship between name (Ostro-)
>and geographical location (East). Thus it is perfectly
>possible that the Scandinavian "Ostrogothae" of the 6th
>century or earlier (before 551, the date when Jordanes' Getica
>was finished) did not live "East" in any geographical sense.
>The possibility of a non-Eastern location is further substantiated
>by the fact that Jordanes' enumeration of Scandinavian nations
>follows a system of a sequential order, whose nature is geograpic.
>Thus, whenever he mentions several nations in the same sentence,
>we often find confirmed, by comparing with later sources, that
>Jordanes' sequential order of enumeration reflects real geographic
>locations in their proper sequential order; which is, by the
>way, entirely within the bounds of reason, nay, even most
>probable, when we realize that it was an important part of
>the Roman educational system, to place much emphasis on how
>knowledge and summaries of such had to be memorized and
>mentioned in certain almost formulaic sequences, whose purpose
>it was to facilitate the ready mental availability of such
>knowledge. See for example the textbook that Cicero wrote on
>rhetoric, where such systems of memorisation are thoroughly
>explained.
>
>Thus when Jordanes, Getica § 23, mentions in a single sentence
>that (cf. Nordin) "Utanför dessa bor Ostrogothae, Raumaricii, Aeragna-
>ricii och de blida Finni, som är mer saktmodiga än alla andra
>innbyggare i Scandza." then that certainly is a good indication
>of the geographic proximity of these people. When Nordin
>further points out that "Aeragnaricii" most likely is a corruption
>of "ac Ragnaricii" (= och innvånarane i Ranriki (i Bohuslän)),
>then it is indeed also easy to identify "Raumariki" with today's
>Romerike, which is located just North of Oslo. Thus, by the
>application of these principles, one must of necessity place
>Jordanes' "Ostrogothae" somewhere in the proximity of the
>Oslo-Bohuslän area, which is admittedly a large area (distance
>Oslo - Gautelfr mouth = ca. 200 km.), but compared to the
>total size of all of Scandinavia, nevertheless limits the
>geographic area where Jordanes' Ostrogotha may have lived.
>
>If we further pay attention to his sequential order:
>Ostrogothae - Raumaricii - Ragnaricii - Finni, then
>we obtain a location closer to Romerike than to Götaland.
>But such reasoning then also places the "Finni" (=Saami)
>somwhere near Skåne, which is of course possible, but
>somwhat less likely. (because one generally assumes that
>the Saami live North of a certain debatable line in
>Scandinavia).
>
>
>
>>What Jordens meant in the 6th century AD when he
>>wrote Ostrogoths in _Getica_ is of course
>>hard to know. In Sweden it is simply translated into
>>oestgoetar (on the east coast) although most of the peoples Jordanes
>>mentions on Scandza are likely on the west coast.
>>The Gautigoth of Jordanes are thus probably "the Goths on
>>Gautelfr". But to link the Ostrogoti with the west coast
>>seems not correct as Jordanes points to the east by
>>using Ostro-.
>
>>Esteemed listmembers and Keth,
>>
>>Although the question of the name of the vikings
>>is related to Gothic indirectly it should possibly
>>be mentioned that the origin of the word is not
>>finally solved. Of course the first vikings
>>may have come from Viken, but the pre-Vikings
>>most likely did not. The most common explanation
>>is also vik (bay).
>>
>>If I remember the first viking attacks was by
>>Danish vikings on the English east-coast
>>so it seems probable that the first Viking era
>>vikings came from the Danish kingdom.
>
>The Irish annals called the Vikings something
>like "Hruothi" which indicates Old Norse "Hordar".
>(=Hardanger area), which is also the most likely,
>since Norway is much closer to Scotland and hence
>Ireland, than Denmark is.
>
>I have also read in other places that the first
>Vikings were from Hordaland. (meaning that Viken
>is out - although Viken may also have been Danish
>at that time. PLease also take a look at Beowulf and see how
>many different kinds of "Danes" he enumerates.)
>
>
>
>>
>>It should also be noted that the area around
>>Gautelfr/Goetaelv was strategically very
>>important during the 16th and 17th centuries.
>>Denmark controlled the areas north and south
>>of Goetaalv. Thus it was of great importance
>>for Sweden to capture the area around the
>>river. The conquest of these areas was combined
>>with a total disaster for the Danish, when Sweden's
>>King Charles X Gustavus made an unexpected
>>march with the army from Poland along the
>>northern German coast and reached Zealand and
>>Copenhagen by crossing the ice between the Danish
>>islands. The siege of Copenhagen failed but the
>>Danes were forced to hand over Scania, Halland and
>>Bohuslaen and some other territories to Sweden in
>>1658. So it was not just a casual failure by the Danes
>>but a general breakdown.
>>
>I read that the Danish nobles preferred masquarade balls
>at the Danish castles, even while the war was raging.
>
>(though the Danes might protest this. I don't know.
>anybody want to break a lance for the Danish nobles
>of the baroque period?)
>
>(on the condition that we remain friends! )
>
>Best regards
>Keth
>
>
>
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