[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls-Goffart-J.Svennung-midnight sun-

[Einar Birgisson]

--- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> > 
> > >
> 
> 
> Somehow I doubt that he ever really sought to go to Thule. As far 
as I 
> know it was not a place were Byzantine Greeks travelled to 
regularly, 
> and he must have known that an opportunity would never present 
itself 
> under normal circumstances unless he would mount a full scale 
> expedition. His comment is similar to somebody today saying that he 
> always wanted to go to the moon, but no opportunity presented 
itself. 
> I read this as a rethoric tool to increase the credibility of his 
> report.
> 
>     Einar; Hæ Dirk.                                                 

 Dirk, you honestly must be in a hurry! I mean, read it again(the 
above). What do you see?                                              

These are pure speculations and show a vivid imagination. Just like 
that, I could write if my blood sugar were low.

You can of course not have the slightest idea what was going on in 
Procopiu´s mind or what he was thinking.                              
And this comment about a full scale expedition is a little bit 
strange. It sounds like when groups are going to climb Mt. Everest.

There were trading relations to Scandinavia along established trade 
routes. Had been so for hundred of years(and likely more of 
course).     
You just had to travel with traders and have money for food etc.     
Well,of course it was risky. You had to be able to take care of 
yourself. Make friends instead of enemies along the way.

There were no special problems for traders traveling from say present 
day Hungary to Scandinavia in the spring,summer or autumn time. I 
think Procopius knew this perfectly. I do not think he believed any 
fairy tale stories about people freezing to death almost instantly 
and all kinds of other funny 
stories.                                               
If somebody really believed such stories,then I suggest it was the 
more uneducated citizen of the Roman Empire in Italy,kids and nobody 
else.                                                                 
People were not more stupid then than now, and Procopius was 
definitely not stupid.

And comparing traveling to the moon and traveling in those days,say 
from Pannonia to Scandinavia. No, Dirk,you can not be serious here.


> Maybe he did make enquiries with traders from Thule. However, in 
other 
>  places he also vouches that information that he provides is true 
and 
> his sources were trustworthy even when we know that they are not. 

> 
>    Einar; That´s right. He could have made inquiries with traders.

  And Procopius could maybe not always judge who(giving him info.) 
was trustworthy and who not. Nobody is so perfect.
> 
> 
> >And they gave me an account which 
> >is
> > true and trustworthy. 
> 
> 
> Yes, that is what he also wrote when the data was clearly and 
> knowingly wrong, like 100,000 Franks or 100,000 Anglians in 400 
> ships...
> 
     Einar; I think Troels has answered that in a satisfactory manner.
> 
> 
> >For they said that the sun during those forty 
> days
> > does not indeed set just as has been stated, but is visible to 
the 
> people
> > there at one time toward the east, and again toward the west. 
> Whenever,
> > therefore,on its return,it reaches the same place on the horizon 
> where they
> > had previously been accustomed to see it rise, they reckon in 
this 
> way that
> > one day and night have passed. When, however, the time of the 
nights
> > arrives, they always take note of the courses of the moon and 
stars 
> and
> > thus reckon the measure of the days....
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> Jordanes account of the mid-night sun (see below) reads very 
> similarly. 
> 
> Jordanes, Getica (19) "...Now in the island of Scandza, whereof I 
> speak, there dwell many and divers nations, though Ptolemaeus 
mentions 
> the names of but seven of them. There the honey-making swarms of 
bees 
> are nowhere to be found on account of the exceeding great cold. In 
the 
> northern part of the island the race of the Adogit live, who are 
said 
> to have continual light in midsummer for forty days and nights, and 
> who likewise have no clear light in the winter season for the same 
> number of days and nights. (20) By reason of this alternation of 
> sorrow and joy they are like no other race in their sufferings and 
> blessings. And why? Because during the longer days they see the sun 
> returning to the east along the rim of the horizon, but on the 
shorter 
> days it is not thus seen. The sun shows itself differently because 
it 
> is passing through the southern signs, and whereas to us the sun 
seem 
> to rise from below, it seems to go around them along the edge of 
the 
> earth."

>    Einar; This is interesting. But this does not prove anything. 
Both Jordanes and Procopius were descriping exactly the same thing. 
No wonder they used similar terms.Is it?

> 
> Both knew the length of 40 days and nights. Both described the sun 
> passing along the horizon. And both will likely have used the same 
> ancient geographical source. Perhaps Procopius really did speak to 
> somebody who had figured out how to measure the length of the day 
> in this circumstances, or who even came from there; impossible to 
say 
> given the bias that he displayed in other comments. 

  Einar; This does not prove anything. Both mentioning the 40 
days,could be a coincidence. Not impossible. 

And you say;"Both described the sun passing along the horizon" What 
does that prove? Nothing of course.                                   
But I am not sure exactly what you mean here. At least the travel of 
the sun from east to west along the horizon was common knowledge!     

And everybody must have known that the more north you went,then the 
sun did not reach as high on the horizon as more south.               
Every educated man must have known that and all traders doing trade 
between Scandinavia and central or south Europe.
I think actually that this must have been a common knowledge.         
You just have to travel maybe 200 km north or south and there are 
obvious changes in how high in the horizon the sun goes.
What is your point?

  Bless,bless Einar. 
> 
> 



------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
See What You've Been Missing!
Amazing Wireless Video Camera.
Click here
http://us.click.yahoo.com/75YKVC/7.PDAA/ySSFAA/wWMplB/TM
---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

You are a member of the Gothic-L list.  To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe at egroups.com>. 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/