[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls-Goffart-J.Svennung-midnight sun-

[faltin2001]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "Einar Birgisson" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > >
> > 
> > 
> > Somehow I doubt that he ever really sought to go to Thule. As far 
> as I 
> > know it was not a place were Byzantine Greeks travelled to 
> regularly, 
> > and he must have known that an opportunity would never present 
> itself 
> > under normal circumstances unless he would mount a full scale 
> > expedition. His comment is similar to somebody today saying that 
he 
> > always wanted to go to the moon, but no opportunity presented 
> itself. 
> > I read this as a rethoric tool to increase the credibility of his 
> > report.
> > 
> >     Einar; Hæ Dirk.                                                
 
> 
>  Dirk, you honestly must be in a hurry! I mean, read it again(the 
> above). What do you see?  


What is your point?
                                           
 

> These are pure speculations and show a vivid imagination. Just like 
> that, I could write if my blood sugar were low.


It seems to be low, otherwise you would make a point rather than 
mumbling around.



> 
> You can of course not have the slightest idea what was going on in 
> Procopiu´s mind or what he was thinking.  



Neither can you.



                           
 
> And this comment about a full scale expedition is a little bit 
> strange. It sounds like when groups are going to climb Mt. Everest.
> 
> There were trading relations to Scandinavia along established trade 
> routes. Had been so for hundred of years(and likely more of 
> course).     
> You just had to travel with traders and have money for food etc.     
> Well,of course it was risky. You had to be able to take care of 
> yourself. Make friends instead of enemies along the way.


It was not quite as simple as you say. There were trade relations with 
 Scandinavia, but this was for the most part not direct trade. The 
Scandinavian tribes sold or exchanged their goods with people they 
knew further south, they again traded with people futher south and 
eventually the goods reached Constantinopel. However, direct 
long-distance trade had almost come to a stand-still in the 6th 
century.





> 
> There were no special problems for traders traveling from say 
present 
> day Hungary to Scandinavia in the spring,summer or autumn time. I 
> think Procopius knew this perfectly. I do not think he believed any 
> fairy tale stories about people freezing to death almost instantly 
> and all kinds of other funny 
> stories.   


Once again, you proclaim that you know what Procopius knew and what he 
thougth. The writing of the time of Procopius paints a different 
picutre. Knowledge about ethnographic and geographic situation in 
Scandinavia were extremely limited at the time of Procopius, 
testifying to the fact that hardly anybody made the journey directly.



                                            
> If somebody really believed such stories,then I suggest it was the 
> more uneducated citizen of the Roman Empire in Italy,kids and nobody 
> else.  



Procopius was not writing for the more uneducated citizens of the 
Roman Empire. They could not read and would not read his accounts 
anyway. He wrote for the most highly educated classes of th Empire, 
members of the senatorial elite, of which Procopius saw himself as 
member.




                                                              
 
> People were not more stupid then than now, and Procopius was 
> definitely not stupid.


Nobody said he was stupid. As Cameron wrote, he had very limited 
talent as writer, he did not bother to check his sources and he was 
strongly politically motivated. 





> 
> And comparing traveling to the moon and traveling in those days,say 
> from Pannonia to Scandinavia. No, Dirk,you can not be serious here.



It was an example to clarify the point. People were not simply, just 
like this traveling hundreds of kilometeres beyond the boundaries of 
the Roman Empire. 





> 
> 
> > Maybe he did make enquiries with traders from Thule. However, in 
> other 
> >  places he also vouches that information that he provides is true 
> and 
> > his sources were trustworthy even when we know that they are not. 
> 
> > 
> >    Einar; That´s right. He could have made inquiries with traders.
> 
>   And Procopius could maybe not always judge who(giving him info.) 
> was trustworthy and who not. Nobody is so perfect.



Again, you are too apologetic for Procopius. Because you clearly want 
to believe certain bits, causes you to overlook the inconsitencies, 
just like Cameron described.



> > 
> > 
> > >And they gave me an account which 
> > >is
> > > true and trustworthy. 
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, that is what he also wrote when the data was clearly and 
> > knowingly wrong, like 100,000 Franks or 100,000 Anglians in 400 
> > ships...
> > 
>      Einar; I think Troels has answered that in a satisfactory 
manner.


Not in my view. Procopius was informed about military matters. He 
would have known that these numbers were wrong, but it did not matter 
to him. That means that his quantitative information is dubious in 
general.




> > 
> > 
> > >For they said that the sun during those forty 
> > days
> > > does not indeed set just as has been stated, but is visible to 
> the 
> > people
> > > there at one time toward the east, and again toward the west. 
> > Whenever,
> > > therefore,on its return,it reaches the same place on the horizon 
> > where they
> > > had previously been accustomed to see it rise, they reckon in 
> this 
> > way that
> > > one day and night have passed. When, however, the time of the 
> nights
> > > arrives, they always take note of the courses of the moon and 
> stars 
> > and
> > > thus reckon the measure of the days....
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Jordanes account of the mid-night sun (see below) reads very 
> > similarly. 
> > 
> > Jordanes, Getica (19) "...Now in the island of Scandza, whereof I 
> > speak, there dwell many and divers nations, though Ptolemaeus 
> mentions 
> > the names of but seven of them. There the honey-making swarms of 
> bees 
> > are nowhere to be found on account of the exceeding great cold. In 
> the 
> > northern part of the island the race of the Adogit live, who are 
> said 
> > to have continual light in midsummer for forty days and nights, 
and 
> > who likewise have no clear light in the winter season for the same 
> > number of days and nights. (20) By reason of this alternation of 
> > sorrow and joy they are like no other race in their sufferings and 
> > blessings. And why? Because during the longer days they see the 
sun 
> > returning to the east along the rim of the horizon, but on the 
> shorter 
> > days it is not thus seen. The sun shows itself differently because 
> it 
> > is passing through the southern signs, and whereas to us the sun 
> seem 
> > to rise from below, it seems to go around them along the edge of 
> the 
> > earth."
> 
> >    Einar; This is interesting. But this does not prove anything. 
> Both Jordanes and Procopius were descriping exactly the same thing. 
> No wonder they used similar terms.Is it?



Of course not, because they knew the same geographical sources.






> 
> > 
> > Both knew the length of 40 days and nights. Both described the sun 
> > passing along the horizon. And both will likely have used the same 
> > ancient geographical source. Perhaps Procopius really did speak to 
> > somebody who had figured out how to measure the length of the day 
> > in this circumstances, or who even came from there; impossible to 
> say 
> > given the bias that he displayed in other comments. 
> 
>   Einar; This does not prove anything. Both mentioning the 40 
> days,could be a coincidence. Not impossible. 



Once again, they used the same sources - no coincidence they had the 
same data.




> 
> And you say;"Both described the sun passing along the horizon" What 
> does that prove? Nothing of course.                                  
 
> But I am not sure exactly what you mean here. At least the travel of 
> the sun from east to west along the horizon was common knowledge!    
 
> 
> And everybody must have known that the more north you went,then the 
> sun did not reach as high on the horizon as more south.              
 
> Every educated man must have known that and all traders doing trade 
> between Scandinavia and central or south Europe.
> I think actually that this must have been a common knowledge.        
 
> You just have to travel maybe 200 km north or south and there are 
> obvious changes in how high in the horizon the sun goes.
> What is your point?


I don't know! I was asked for my interpretation of this passage. 
Others think that it proves that Procopius had 'exclusive' first hand 
information about the mid-night sun. I don't think that this is the 
case.

cheers
Dirk


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