[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls-Goffart-J.Svennung-midnight sun-

[einarbirg]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:
> --- In gothic-l at y..., "Einar Birgisson" <einarbirg at y...> wrote:
> > --- In gothic-l at y..., dirk at s... wrote:
> > > --- In gothic-l at y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm at s...> wrote:
> > > > 
           Einar; Hæ Dirk
>> > 
> > You can of course not have the slightest idea what was going on 
in 
> > Procopiu´s mind or what he was thinking.  
> 
> 
> 
> Neither can you.

  Einar; Where did I claim that? I am wise enough not making such 
claims. 
Well, my answer is; And neither can you nor Goffart.


>
> > There were no special problems for traders traveling from say 
> present 
> > day Hungary to Scandinavia in the spring,summer or autumn time. I 
> > think Procopius knew this perfectly. I do not think he believed 
any 
> > fairy tale stories about people freezing to death almost 
instantly 
> > and all kinds of other funny 
> > stories.   
> 
> 
> Once again, you proclaim that you know what Procopius knew and what 
he 
> thougth.                                                         
       
    Einar; This is one of your misunderstandings. I said ; I do not 
think he believed....
And; I think.....
At least I am not making claims like Goffart who claims to know what 
every individual Goth knew and knew not. And claiming knowing what 
everybody else knew too.


The writing of the time of Procopius paints a different 
> picutre. Knowledge about ethnographic and geographic situation in 
> Scandinavia were extremely limited at the time of Procopius, 
> testifying to the fact that hardly anybody made the journey 
directly.

   Einar; I notice that you say; hardly anybody.
> 
                                          
> > If somebody really believed such stories,then I suggest it was 
the 
> > more uneducated citizen of the Roman Empire in Italy,kids and 
nobody 
> > else.  
> 
> 
> 
> Procopius was not writing for the more uneducated citizens of the 
> Roman Empire. They could not read and would not read his accounts 
> anyway. He wrote for the most highly educated classes of th Empire, 
> members of the senatorial elite, of which Procopius saw himself as 
> member.
> 
>  Einar; That does not mean that they believed those stories.
> 
>                                                              
> Again, you are too apologetic for Procopius. Because you clearly 
want 
> to believe certain bits, causes you to overlook the inconsitencies, 
> just like Cameron described.

   Einar; My world picture is not just black and white, but somewhere 
in between. I find his account of the travel of the Heruli and 
related writings,reasonably trustworthy.                              
I am not judging his other writings.
> 
> 
> 
seen. The sun shows itself differently because 
> > it 
> > > is passing through the southern signs, and whereas to us the 
sun 
> > seem 
> > > to rise from below, it seems to go around them along the edge 
of 
> > the 
> > > earth."
> > 
> > >    Einar; This is interesting. But this does not prove 
anything. 
> > Both Jordanes and Procopius were descriping exactly the same 
thing. 
> > No wonder they used similar terms.Is it?
> 
> 
> 
> Of course not, because they knew the same geographical sources.

  Einar; Do you have any evidence to support this claim?

Apart from that then their descriptions are very much different.      
The similarities are not there. They both say 40 days. Apart from 
that there is no similarity. 

And I do not think that you have any idea, if they used the same 
sources in these case. Who says they did?
They both knew about the 40 days. Apart from that there are no 
connections or similarities to bee seen.



> > > Both knew the length of 40 days and nights. Both described the 
sun 
> > > passing along the horizon. And both will likely have used the 
same 
> > > ancient geographical source. Perhaps Procopius really did speak 
to 
> > > somebody who had figured out how to measure the length of the 
day 
> > > in this circumstances, or who even came from there; impossible 
to 
> > say 
> > > given the bias that he displayed in other comments. 
> > 
> >   Einar; This does not prove anything. Both mentioning the 40 
> > days,could be a coincidence. Not impossible. 
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, they used the same sources - no coincidence they had 
the 
> same data.

  Einar; You do not have any idea if they used the same source or 
not. Their descriptions are not similar at all. The only similarity 
is that they both say; 40 days.                                       
That is not evidence enough for claiming them using the same sources. 
The big difference in their descriptions shows the contrary.

Bless,bless. Einar.
> 
 



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