[gothic-l] Re: Names of Heruls-Goffart-J.Svennung-midnight sun-

[troels_brandt]

--- In gothic-l at y..., "faltin2001" <dirk at s...> wrote:

> Jordanes account of the mid-night sun (see below) reads very
> similarly.
>
> Jordanes, Getica (19) "...In the
> northern part of the island the race of the Adogit live, who are
said
> to have continual light in midsummer for forty days and nights, and
> who likewise have no clear light in the winter season for the same
> number of days and nights. (20) By reason of this alternation of
> sorrow and joy they are like no other race in their sufferings and
> blessings. And why? Because during the longer days they see the sun
> returning to the east along the rim of the horizon, but on the
shorter
> days it is not thus seen. The sun shows itself differently because
it
> is passing through the southern signs, and whereas to us the sun
seem
> to rise from below, it seems to go around them along the edge of
the
> earth."
........

> Both knew the length of 40 days and nights. Both described the sun
> passing along the horizon. And both will likely have used the same
> ancient geographical source. Perhaps Procopius really did speak to
> somebody who had figured out how to measure the length of the day
> in this circumstances, or who even came from there; impossible to
say
> given the bias that he displayed in other comments.

........

Dirk,

This was just what I expected, when I asked.

Originally your claim was, when you rejected Procopius, that his
descriptions from Scandinavia were just copied from earlier
geographers. You have repeated this so often that it sounded like a
fact, and this was one of your important arguments against his
description of the migration to Thule and the returning princes and
warriors.

The example you bring us now is by Jordanes, who probably wrote at
the same time and in the same town as Procopius.

Procopius had two elements (The festival 5 days before the new light
and the measuring of time) which are not found in the description by
Jordanes. Opposite I agree that the 40 days probably were from the
same source. Consequently Procopius could not be based on Jordanes as
the only source, but Jordanes could be based on Procopius or one or
more common sources in Byzanz.

Procopius own information about his source, which is confirmed by his
exact information, is in no way contradicted by Jordanes, and it
would not be contradicted even if Jordanes words were older or were
based on an older description, as Procopius might have combined
different sources. If the source used by Jordanes was only at second
hand and Procopius had the opportunity to talk to eyewitnesses
earlier, we will never know, and it is not important in this
connection.

Your final remark indicate, that you have realised that yourself, and
therefore it is not surprising to read your latest statement:

> Also, I said that it is not impossible that Procopius really did
speak
> to somebody from Scandinavia. However, the fact that knowledge
about
> Scandinavia was extremely limited at his time indicates (according
to
> Hachmann, Svennung and others) that direct contact was very rare.
>

Normally you explain all signs of international connections in
Scandinavia with trade connections. Above you indirectly accept, that
if Procopius was so well-informed as he appears, he most likely met
some of the Heruls he told had returned from a place next to the
Gautoi - as "direct contact was very rare". This is confirmed by his
pluralis - he did not talk to a merchant.

However my purpose was not to prove, that Procopius was right. My
purpose was just to let you demonstrate, that the earlier mentioned
claim about the old geographers you have used again and again against
Procopius until now from your side has been based on pure
speculation - at least regarding his knowledge of Scandinavia.

Maybe we should investigate other parts of his information from
Scandinavia, but first I will pick up one of your remarks in this
thread about his description of the Heruls, which you also call
unthrustworty:

> I agree, it is possible and some authors have argued that they
> picked up some Eastern customs to this effect. However, as
> Cameron states the 'burning alive' bit is not believable, and
> the whole practice is likely an ethnographic cliche.

I hope for Cameron that this argument is your own. Procopios did not
talk about "burning alive". The man was killed by a dagger and burned
afterwards at a pile of wood. Actually old and sick people sometimes
commit suicide - and sometimes they get help against the law - even
in our modern societies. There is nothing improbable in this
description from Procopius and as Bertil and Einar have demonstrated
they were usual in old Scandinavian literature and myths.

I have once seen the unholy mating being explained with homosexuality
among the mercenaries. Besides the rumour about the asses, which
character must have been very obvious to everybody, I do not see
unusual examples as the people Procopius described were regarded as
traitors. It is not surprising that he choosed the worst examples.

Troels


Ps! The way of burning the body at a pile of wood and collecting the
remains of the bones as mentioned here is similar to the way some of
the Scandinavian kings were burned in the sagaes and Beowulf -
including Odin in Ynglingesaga. Afterwards they are told to have
raised mounds. However the sagas mention different burial habits and
so do the archaeologists of Scandinavia - even in the boatgraves. A
pile of wood was the natural way to cremate a migrating warrior, but
not necessarily a settled king of farmers.



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